Well, you did a good job Sadjo. That's a cool little course.
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Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development
- Thread starter HouckDesign
- Start date
I love that idea when it's well planned and executed. I've seen some situations where a long position was added later and made the hole more interesting and challenging but I've also seen later changes that simply added a pinball finish or something like that to make it tougher without being a good overall hole design.
^^^All to often it is done poorly. 
Hey John,
I posted this in a different thread and wonder if you, or anyone else listening, had ever had anything lke this happen to you. It will require a good deal of redesign.
(after my team had built 8 holes that were either totally in the woods or that required some measure of cutting) My park department contact notified me that they were going to build 2 playgrounds, one restroom with bays large enough for 10 picnic tables, one 6000 sq ft barn for party rental, expand two parking lots and build a double decker tree house in the woods that would be ADA compliant to use for weddings and stuff !!!!!!
I posted this in a different thread and wonder if you, or anyone else listening, had ever had anything lke this happen to you. It will require a good deal of redesign.
(after my team had built 8 holes that were either totally in the woods or that required some measure of cutting) My park department contact notified me that they were going to build 2 playgrounds, one restroom with bays large enough for 10 picnic tables, one 6000 sq ft barn for party rental, expand two parking lots and build a double decker tree house in the woods that would be ADA compliant to use for weddings and stuff !!!!!!
Holy cow -- that exact thing happened to me. We used the roof of the tree house as a tee that threw over the barn, through the window of the restroom, and around the parking lots, where every light post was a mando (safety first!). The playground was OB (obviously), but the basket was at the bottom of the slide and blocked on three sides by those horsey things on a spring -- you had to lay up the playground, and putt up to the top of the slide, so your disc would slide down into the basket...
Seriously, I've been thrown some curveballs in mid-project, but nothing like this. Possibly worse, I've had a couple courses cancelled after I did the design. I think Chuck addressed this type of thing in his interview on DG Talk Radio recently, where he said that you just never know until the last tees are poured. We used to have a t-shirt that covered it, too: "It Ain't Over Until the Fat Lady Putts."
So sorry to hear that you have to deal with all that -- I know you'll make lemonade out of the situation. Good luck with it.
I have an idea for a green /design that I'd like to bounce off some other people. Imagine this...
You have a nice 300 ft par 3 with three distinct lanes to the basket.
Lane #1. 300 ft dead straight low ceiling tunnel shot. OB lake threatens on the left side and skinny OB creek threatens along the right side of the fairway. Trees outline the narrow fairway threatening to kick errant shots toward OB. This is the shortest, but most technical route to the basket.
Lane #2. There is a gap 100 ft down the fairway on the right side, about 30 ft wide. It is possible to throw out this gap, over the OB creek and then hyzer your shot back (once again over the creek) onto the green. This adds roughly 30-50 ft of distance to the hole but is much less guarded by trees, provided that you actually hit the initial 30 ft gap. The ceiling is also higher, allowing you to air the disc out a bit more.
Lane #3. "Out and around" huge anhyzer/forhand/lefty route that goes out over the OB lake. This route significantly lengthens the hole, playing about 360-400 ft. There is no longer any threat of trees to deal with, but you are obviously flirting with the OB lake.
The green. The green is basically a U with an up-side-down V ("U" with "^" on top) shape. The basket rests in the center of the V with thick bunker trees surrounding the V part of the green as well as a slight drop off/pitch to the ground rolling toward the OB creek and lake on either side.
The thought process behind the hole.
The hole offers options to various players.
The dead straight tunnel shot is the hardest/tightest line to hit, but also has the most forgiveness on the green because of the ^ at the back of the green.
The hyzer shot, while still requiring some accuracy is a notably easier line to hit, but requires more power and risks the OB creek coming into play. Sticking the shot on the green is also more difficult because the shot is more likely to skip off the back of the "^" unless intentionally laid short to the "U" where a better putt is required.
Finally the anhyzer/lefty/forhand shot is by far the most open, but also requires the most power and involves the largest risk of OB. Like the Hyzer shot, it is also prone to skip or cut-roll of the green into a difficult position unless, once again, purposely played short and requiring a longer putt.
Ok. That was a lot. I got the inspiration for this hole earlier today while I was out hiking and came across a unique piece of land. This "U" with a "^" on top green could work in several other instances as well. Let me know what you think.
You have a nice 300 ft par 3 with three distinct lanes to the basket.
Lane #1. 300 ft dead straight low ceiling tunnel shot. OB lake threatens on the left side and skinny OB creek threatens along the right side of the fairway. Trees outline the narrow fairway threatening to kick errant shots toward OB. This is the shortest, but most technical route to the basket.
Lane #2. There is a gap 100 ft down the fairway on the right side, about 30 ft wide. It is possible to throw out this gap, over the OB creek and then hyzer your shot back (once again over the creek) onto the green. This adds roughly 30-50 ft of distance to the hole but is much less guarded by trees, provided that you actually hit the initial 30 ft gap. The ceiling is also higher, allowing you to air the disc out a bit more.
Lane #3. "Out and around" huge anhyzer/forhand/lefty route that goes out over the OB lake. This route significantly lengthens the hole, playing about 360-400 ft. There is no longer any threat of trees to deal with, but you are obviously flirting with the OB lake.
The green. The green is basically a U with an up-side-down V ("U" with "^" on top) shape. The basket rests in the center of the V with thick bunker trees surrounding the V part of the green as well as a slight drop off/pitch to the ground rolling toward the OB creek and lake on either side.
The thought process behind the hole.
The hole offers options to various players.
The dead straight tunnel shot is the hardest/tightest line to hit, but also has the most forgiveness on the green because of the ^ at the back of the green.
The hyzer shot, while still requiring some accuracy is a notably easier line to hit, but requires more power and risks the OB creek coming into play. Sticking the shot on the green is also more difficult because the shot is more likely to skip off the back of the "^" unless intentionally laid short to the "U" where a better putt is required.
Finally the anhyzer/lefty/forhand shot is by far the most open, but also requires the most power and involves the largest risk of OB. Like the Hyzer shot, it is also prone to skip or cut-roll of the green into a difficult position unless, once again, purposely played short and requiring a longer putt.
Ok. That was a lot. I got the inspiration for this hole earlier today while I was out hiking and came across a unique piece of land. This "U" with a "^" on top green could work in several other instances as well. Let me know what you think.
TeeSquared
Par Member
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2012
- Messages
- 132
tee design
I'm curios about trends in current tee design.
I know the PDGA says "Cement or Asphalt tees are preferred" but lately it seems the trend in new course development is to use stay mat on tee pads, sometime placed on top of cement, pavers, or right on top of the ground. One course in our area, recently redesigned, used a combo of Stay Mat placed upon leveled out crushed stone that was bordered using 4x4's or larger stones.
What have you seen as the desire of disc golfers, course owners, and is stay mat where it's at?
Thanks!
forgive me if this was answered, it's a long thread and read most of it...
I'm curios about trends in current tee design.
I know the PDGA says "Cement or Asphalt tees are preferred" but lately it seems the trend in new course development is to use stay mat on tee pads, sometime placed on top of cement, pavers, or right on top of the ground. One course in our area, recently redesigned, used a combo of Stay Mat placed upon leveled out crushed stone that was bordered using 4x4's or larger stones.
What have you seen as the desire of disc golfers, course owners, and is stay mat where it's at?
Thanks!
forgive me if this was answered, it's a long thread and read most of it...
Hi again. This is another design idea I've been working on. I have a great course I've been working on for the last year in Saipan, a small island in the Pacific Ocean near Guam. Unfortunately, it's in a National Park, so I doubt they'd ever let me permanently install the course. As of now, I've been playing with a few friends weekly carrying my portable basket as we go.
I was very inspired by your article on designing Par 5's and have been trying out different ideas. This is my current design on hole 18 at the park. It is meant to be a gold level hole.
Sorry for the poor quality picture, I just drew it up in Microsoft Paint.
Feedback and critiques are what I'm looking for the most. I don't have many fellow Disc Golfers out here on the islands. Thanks.
I was very inspired by your article on designing Par 5's and have been trying out different ideas. This is my current design on hole 18 at the park. It is meant to be a gold level hole.
Sorry for the poor quality picture, I just drew it up in Microsoft Paint.
Feedback and critiques are what I'm looking for the most. I don't have many fellow Disc Golfers out here on the islands. Thanks.
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Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
It looks to me like the player with an "eagle" arm might just as well lay up short of the OB hex and try to reach the pin from there rather than try and hit the 430 area. But I might be off based on the scale of your drawing. Even then, it looks like there's enough landing room on the approach that it still might be a safer combination of throw for everyone. My point is I'm not sure anyone would find it worthwhile to use the eagle landing area even though it's a cool concept.
Hey Chuck,
It's not the best drawing, but the angle is almost impossible to hit from the "birdie zone". Those brown stars are all trees, many of which are over 100 ft high. The star on the top of the hill is about a 40 ft tree that really pinches the angle. You'd have to throw a shot high enough to clear the hill and the tree and then turn almost 90 degrees. If it fades out, you're in the wetlands, if it turns over, you're in the wetlands. Usually from the birdie landing zone the best shot is a soft turnover to the top of the hill just under the tree, or a big forehand stall shot over the tree and then crashing to the 175 ft landing zone.
The Eagle landing zone is really just opening up the angle. Now with two great long shots it is possible to hit the green. Does that make more sense now?
It's not the best drawing, but the angle is almost impossible to hit from the "birdie zone". Those brown stars are all trees, many of which are over 100 ft high. The star on the top of the hill is about a 40 ft tree that really pinches the angle. You'd have to throw a shot high enough to clear the hill and the tree and then turn almost 90 degrees. If it fades out, you're in the wetlands, if it turns over, you're in the wetlands. Usually from the birdie landing zone the best shot is a soft turnover to the top of the hill just under the tree, or a big forehand stall shot over the tree and then crashing to the 175 ft landing zone.
The Eagle landing zone is really just opening up the angle. Now with two great long shots it is possible to hit the green. Does that make more sense now?
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Yes. I just couldn't tell how tough it was to hit the angle to the pin from the birdie landing zone if you had enough power.
hey John, thanks again for fielding questions on here as time permits. Have you or anyone else on this board designed a course with NO trees? We are about to break ground on the 1st course in the Carson City/Carson Valley, Nv area and there is nothing but sage brush. The property sits on the foothills of the Sierras so there is a lot of elevation change along with a small canyon and dry wash. Some of the sage brush is 6ft tall so there are definately options for hiding baskets, placing them on slopes, and having them near the edges of the wash. We can probably utilize the canyon/wash for 6-9 holes for throwing over and around and making risk/reward shots but other than that we are finding a hard time making tee shots a challenge when there is no wind. The prevailing afternoon winds will definately make it a challenge. the plan is to have 12 par 3's and 6 par 4's. Any tips or advice from anyone would be highly appreciated!
Thanks, Mike
Thanks, Mike
Wow, what a challenge with no trees. I have one thought for you. Sometimes when I have to put a hole in an open area where there are no trees I try to find where the land dropss away a little bit about 50' before you get to the basket. The effect I try to create is that due to the drop in terrain, the thrower cannot see about 18" to 2' of the bottom of the pole. This makes the basket look closer to the thrower than it really is. So, unless the thrower trusts the disctance on the tee sign there is a good possibility they will come up a little short and have a more challenging putt.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Sounds like using the ball golf "links" style hazard method might be needed. You can have areas marked as OB if you land in them and some could be Buncrs where you must move back to the edge of the buncr on the line of play but with no penalty.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
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I like Stan's suggestion about playing with the visual perspective. And Peterb's suggestion of using any prevailing winds could help you determine wher to place tees/pins for max effect.
Might be difficult to do, but you could try to position a few baskets where people are likely to have to putt over/around sagebrush/bushes from where their upshot lies, trying to deny them a straight run at the basket.
Might be difficult to do, but you could try to position a few baskets where people are likely to have to putt over/around sagebrush/bushes from where their upshot lies, trying to deny them a straight run at the basket.
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Trees provide visual perspective and aiming points...without them DG can be maddeningly difficult for a woods player...it's a different kind of golf in the open I say embrace it
Use the openness and create some cool greens where landing properly is optimal....incorporate slopes, boulders, etc. in different ways elevate a basket on a boulder....place a basket behind a boulder to promote drive/approach placement/ Use the wash to punish bad shots or long shots or short shots....in the open areas dont hesitate to place a wide open 280 footer out there...every course should have one of those I should absolutely 2 this hole every time but I messed up again moments...Nothing wrong with a hole like this as hole 1 or timed between 2 difficult par 4s etc
It sounds like fun terrain...let the imagination move you and disregard what the experts and other disc golfers think
I would say
Use the openness and create some cool greens where landing properly is optimal....incorporate slopes, boulders, etc. in different ways elevate a basket on a boulder....place a basket behind a boulder to promote drive/approach placement/ Use the wash to punish bad shots or long shots or short shots....in the open areas dont hesitate to place a wide open 280 footer out there...every course should have one of those I should absolutely 2 this hole every time but I messed up again moments...Nothing wrong with a hole like this as hole 1 or timed between 2 difficult par 4s etc
It sounds like fun terrain...let the imagination move you and disregard what the experts and other disc golfers think
I would say
I wouldnt get too crazy with the oob unless its the bottom of the wash or a safety concern......I'd hate to see the course get too gimmicked up when there are other more natural ways to make it difficult
try to think of ways to punish aggressive play and punish bad shots....don't think of good shots when designing....think of penalizing the bad shots and design from this paradigm
try to think of ways to punish aggressive play and punish bad shots....don't think of good shots when designing....think of penalizing the bad shots and design from this paradigm
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Never thought about it that way... makes sense. I like it.
