Bottom of palm disc alignment: middle vs ball of palm

[disc-golf-neil]

Because I watch a lot of disc golf and a lot of slow mo. And no, I don't think so, but I also don't think he sees it as an issue in need of fixing.

What do you look for in slow mo to detect it? An initial wobble that flips the disc in one way?

 

[EllEstar]

What do you look for in slow mo to detect it? An initial wobble that flips the disc in one way?

Hey, your questions make it sound like you're not completely certain what you're asking about so I'm going to go into a little bit more detail than the question might seem to warrant. It's not supposed to be patronizing in any way and I hope this is useful.

Off-axis torque on a disc in disc golf is when force is applied to a disc at the moment of ejection whose vector is off-axis to it's trajectory or rotation. Basically for some reason some part of your hand or fingers presses down or up on some part of the disc as it's releasing.

Every disc golf throw has some amount of OAT because we are not perfectly calibrated robots, but for most people the goal is usually to have a small amount of OAT because it can make the disc more affected by wind, reduce its distance potential (but not necessarily throw distance) and in some extreme cases makes it impossible to throw certain discs or even almost any disc (see the most egregious forehand examples).

If there is enough OAT you can spot it with your own eyes in person because the disc will seem to wobble in the air, the more OAT the more wobble and the longer it lasts. For less amounts of OAT you may not notice it until you start looking at slow motion videos or frame by frames, the slower the slow motion the more it becomes apparent that the disc is moving off-axis to its direction and rotation in the air, in frame by frame videos you can often see the top of the flight plate in one frame, the bottom in the next and the top in the third, etc.

Reasons you might want to get rid of OAT:

• Your discs are strongly affected by wind
• Your discs fly on such extreme S-lines that it's hard to control the turn and fade or hard to hit tight lines with them
• You throw with so much OAT/so little spin that there's only a handful of discs that are overstable enough for you to throw

Reasons you might not care about OAT:

• You naturally throw with a lot of hyzer and high spin rate which counteracts the S-lines your discs normally fly on
• The amount of adverse effects the OAT has on your disc is not enough to overcome the positive effects the form change you made, that lead to the OAT, has on your throws
• You like your discs to go BRRR when released

I've met Eagle and seen him throw a bunch of shots in person, he throws with enough OAT that it's obvious in person. When you watch slow motion of him it's super obvious. You also see him sometimes throwing hyzerflips with overstable PD2s on 45° hyzer release angles, which just shouldn't be possible unless you're throwing like 90-100 mph (he throws low to high 70s mostly, depending on the throw, which is like top 2-3 in the world).

He has talked about the fact that he mostly throws with like a modified fan/power grip (don't remember what he calls it) and he only has a very few handful of discs in his bag that are overstable enough to "handle [his] power grip".

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Awesome, thanks.

I wonder if Eagle changed his grip since you saw him because in this video he shows a full 4 finger standard power grip.

Or he's keeping it simple in the marketing video and not showing his real grip variation.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I would love to see Eagle's TechDisc or GameProofer wobble stats, compared to other. Generally, more wobble on a disc makes it less stable. The problem Eagle has had on his max distance throws is he creates so much OAT that the discs flip up more than they should, which ultimately makes them turn over easier. He's made a number of throws where he throws a Cloudbreaker on heavy hyzer, it flips up during the flight, and then drifts over to the right. In some cases this led to dramatic bad results, where basically had has no real option that's overstable enough for him to fully rip on. He throws fast enough, and with plenty of angular velocity, but wobble ablates speed and spin.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The people on reddit will downvote you if you give good advice also.

I'd not listen to a single form anything from them. Their form check threads are awful.

Grip theory is really the least talked about thing. We don't study it, we just make wild things up about how we have to grip the disc and pour the coffee and serve the pizza and all this other dumb crap out there, nobody is actually trying to figure out what happens other than me from what I can tell.


Let me drive it this way.
What the pro's do is only an example to anyone trying to learn, the problem is all the important things for us, ourselves, is not taken into account.

How good is your wrist movements, hand movements, flexability.
Form type, height of form throw, etc. All these really important things.
WE are just told to hold the disc a certian way in our hand and power grip it, then people throw nose up, and we just say "pour the coffee harder" or something like that, And we need to be looking at grip.

Because whats the one other really annoying thing out there?
I'll teach people to throw and show them nothing about grip, but they throw nose down.
Why?
I don't have this answer, but as soon as you try and teach some people who normally throw nose down naturally grip stuff, or grip anything, they start throwing nose up.
Because the shitty coach thinks the important thing is to fix that persons grip and they end up screwing that persons natural ability and instincts.

Do you think supination helps with nose down on hyzers?

 

[Sheep]

Do you think supination helps with nose down on hyzers?

I really should truly look at what pronate and supinate mean.

Because I don't personally think it should be that complicated.

When I heard the terms when that youtuber was using them, what I specifically heard was "I have big vocabulary, so let me wow you with that because I really don't know what I'm talking about."

I think they are important things we should possibly think about, but in all honesty, I think we should focus mainly on making our swing as natural as possible without any fancy stuff in there like that.

So, like when I taught Ball golf. I taught the Natural Golf method. Which was a video series you could buy back in.. oh like 2001? And that's the method I taught because it was so simple, so basic and worked every time teaching people that method. It wasn't trying to over complicate the swing with all sorts of weird mechanics, it was a basic weight shift method with a brace.

The more and more I experiment with what I'm working on here, the more and more I'm sure that it's mainly a grip issue for a majority of golfers. Because we honestly do not teach grip well. There are no good grip video's on the internet, they all are just basic do this and pour the coffee. And...
It doesn't work that way.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I hope you learn the names of common movements so if you have some insights with what you're looking into you will be able to more clearly explain them for our benefit instead of using less precise and less agreed upon terms. I think it's extremely helpful to have precise terms for each movement so that more complicated movements that are a combination of multiple movements can be more clearly broken down and explained.

Pronation and supination is not necessarily fancy. If you're doing an exaggerated briefcase carry, I could see that being fancy, but if you just supinate a bit more and maintain it throughout the swing in order to correct an issue (if it does help, I don't know if it does), that's not fancy.

 

[Sheep]

I hope you learn the names of common movements so if you have some insights with what you're looking into you will be able to more clearly explain them for our benefit instead of using less precise and less agreed upon terms. I think it's extremely helpful to have precise terms for each movement so that more complicated movements that are a combination of multiple movements can be more clearly broken down and explained.

Pronation and supination is not necessarily fancy. If you're doing an exaggerated briefcase carry, I could see that being fancy, but if you just supinate a bit more and maintain it throughout the swing in order to correct an issue (if it does help, I don't know if it does), that's not fancy.

Oh trust me, I'm Mr language when it comes to stuff.

But I've not honestly saw much of any reason to purposefully learn these terms in trying to teach and get people to do what I need them to do. It's the same for ER and IR dominate hips. It's working with the person to get them to use their body as best and naturally as possible, vs trying to force a movement.

However, I'm glad you brought it up to me because. The answer is yes.

 

[timothy42b]

Do you think supination helps with nose down on hyzers?

That might be relevant to the thread topic.

On a hyzer the shoulder is going to be rotating internally as the arm moves toward the release, right? I think that can be a nose up motion, and the supination is a nose down motion. The disc more toward little finger and the bonopane probably do the same thing and result in supination. Maybe.

 

[Sheep]

That might be relevant to the thread topic.

On a hyzer the shoulder is going to be rotating internally as the arm moves toward the release, right? I think that can be a nose up motion, and the supination is a nose down motion. The disc more toward little finger and the bonopane probably do the same thing and result in supination. Maybe.

I don't think the bonerpain works like people think it does.
It's about the dumbest grip in my opinion, but .. I digress.

Nose up has a lot to do with your bodies ability to hinge and flex.
Then how you set your body up to work with that with the disc and your grip.

So, having supper with your disc might be the answer.

With the testing I've done so far, I've been very successful in getting nose up throwers to immediately throw nose down.

However, I'm waiting on the fella in here to report back with his tech disc stuff.

I'm going to re-shoot the high speed video for the different grips.
I just need to edit the nose alignment video still.
Busy doing a bunch of other projects. Video editing isnt... something I get overly thrilled about.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Video editing isnt... something I get overly thrilled about.

Just putting this out there: I create and edit a lot of disc golf videos for YouTube. But I've also recorded myself a fair bit for my form coaches over the last year, and to look at form for a few friends (who wanted targeted help with something specific on their end). So if you send me some clips I can put together a decent video out of it. Not with a lot of stuff going on ala Bodanza (love his videos tho), but I can do good work in modest time frames.

 

[Sheep]

Just putting this out there: I create and edit a lot of disc golf videos for YouTube. But I've also recorded myself a fair bit for my form coaches over the last year, and to look at form for a few friends (who wanted targeted help with something specific on their end). So if you send me some clips I can put together a decent video out of it. Not with a lot of stuff going on ala Bodanza (love his videos tho), but I can do good work in modest time frames.

Thanks.
Editing is pretty easy actually.

It's my unwillingness to work on the computer after 25 years in IT.

Even doing amazon orders can be annoying. If I'm on the computer for anything now I generally want it to be "fun" and not "taxing."


Poor bodanza tho. getting bamboozled by someone trolling as MVP in his comments.
I tried to tell him, but he doesn't check his messages. and when he finally did he was really meh about it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I tried a small number of exaggerated supination and it seemed to produce more hyzer for me. I couldn't tell if it was more nose down b/c I was doing it into a net where I just had enough time to see the hyzer angle.

If I just stand here without throwing and slowly go into the power pocket, then extend the elbow to the hit point, then rotate the disc out of all my back fingers until it's just my index and thumb left, and then I supinate, it appears to be more nose down so idk why it seemed to be more hyzer.

My tech disc doesn't arrive until sometime in January but I'm really looking forward to testing it, I heard you can create "tags" to act as labels so you can add multiple labels to each throw / a batch of throws. I'm planning to create a label system so I can label everything I'm trying to do, such as speed, launch angle, hyzer angle, nose angle and techniques like pour the coffee, supination, grip type, grip pressure, etc.

Then with those tags I can easily see the differences between the actual stats received and what I was trying to do and compare changing one things like supination vs pour the coffee to see average effect over 10 throws each or something.

 

[Cashley56]

I would love to see Eagle's TechDisc or GameProofer wobble stats, compared to other. Generally, more wobble on a disc makes it less stable. The problem Eagle has had on his max distance throws is he creates so much OAT that the discs flip up more than they should, which ultimately makes them turn over easier. He's made a number of throws where he throws a Cloudbreaker on heavy hyzer, it flips up during the flight, and then drifts over to the right. In some cases this led to dramatic bad results, where basically had has no real option that's overstable enough for him to fully rip on. He throws fast enough, and with plenty of angular velocity, but wobble ablates speed and spin.

Eagle threw a TechDisc at USDGC 2023: 75mph, 1489 spin, wobble 4.09. Only one throw but I think his wobble score was toward the low end for the pros. Throw Explorer

 

[Cashley56]

"what is the impact of changing where the disc rests at the bottom of the palm, in the center gulley vs closer to the pinky side of the palm?"

I've tried both using TechDisc and have not found much difference in any stat. Maybe a little more spin when it is in the groove and less wobble when it is in the ball of my palm. I thought that, in theory, having the disc in the groove would allow me to throw nose down (or at least less nose up), but I have seen no real difference.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"what is the impact of changing where the disc rests at the bottom of the palm, in the center gulley vs closer to the pinky side of the palm?"

I've tried both using TechDisc and have not found much difference in any stat. Maybe a little more spin when it is in the groove and less wobble when it is in the ball of my palm. I thought that, in theory, having the disc in the groove would allow me to throw nose down (or at least less nose up), but I have seen no real difference.

I'm fairly certain after some more testing myself now that it effects hyzer / anhyzer angle a bit. If I really exaggerate it, further from the groove, I can lean over like I'm throwing a hyzer flip but end up throwing a flat release angle.

I'm getting a tech disc soon and will test it more but if you want to test it I would suggest first getting something like 5 throws in a row where you hit the nearly the same hyzer angle and then change the grip and try to hit the same hyzer angle a few more times and see if there's a pattern of getting less hyzer.

 

[Sheep]

When I finally get the high speed re-shot to post this video ya'll gonna go crazy. hahaha.

I could make the content without the high speed, but people already want to argue over everything, so. High Speed B-Roll needed.

 

[RowingBoats]

I'm fairly certain after some more testing myself now that it effects hyzer / anhyzer angle a bit. If I really exaggerate it, further from the groove, I can lean over like I'm throwing a hyzer flip but end up throwing a flat release angle.

I'm getting a tech disc soon and will test it more but if you want to test it I would suggest first getting something like 5 throws in a row where you hit the nearly the same hyzer angle and then change the grip and try to hit the same hyzer angle a few more times and see if there's a pattern of getting less hyzer.

I am not sure I follow this myself. If what you are saying is literally true, it seems like you must have something bizarre going on with your swing plane/flexibility and that different grips affect a lot more than the things that I notice grip changes doing.

Just to be sure, we are talking about shots with some oomph here right? I do think some people develop touchier lighter throws and use more wrist manipulation to control angles, but for a distance shot, I don't see how it would do that if throwing with reasonable form.

 

[Sheep]

I am not sure I follow this myself. If what you are saying is literally true, it seems like you must have something bizarre going on with your swing plane/flexibility and that different grips affect a lot more than the things that I notice grip changes doing.

Just to be sure, we are talking about shots with some oomph here right? I do think some people develop touchier lighter throws and use more wrist manipulation to control angles, but for a distance shot, I don't see how it would do that if throwing with reasonable form.

Yeah, I was a bit confused too. Because it shouldn't really have any changes to your angles, that's all generated through posture and swing plane.

the only time that sorta deal works is on forehands. Because that's the cheekiest way to throw forehands while keeping a consistent swing, just droop it a smidge to give it a hair of hyzer, or roll your thumb into the rim to pop it annie. That way you dont have to change your swing.

As for thumb to pinky placement, that's part of what I'm working with on the high speed and with students right now. And it has more to do with alignment posture of the disc to swing plane for nose angles.

So, I could only conclude as you have that there is something weird going on if its showing hyzer and annie changes.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Eagle threw a TechDisc at USDGC 2023: 75mph, 1489 spin, wobble 4.09. Only one throw but I think his wobble score was toward the low end for the pros. Throw Explorer

I find it interesting the most common backhand results from the pros:

Speed: 72 mph
Spin: 1400
Hyzer: 10 degrees
Nose: 0
Launch: 5
Wobble: 4
Distance: 580' or so

I don't think you can extrapolate too much, but the most interesting numbers to me were the angles: hyzer nose, launch and wobble.

Hyzer: There were likely a lot of tests that were not deliberate hyzer, for example, but odds are high that angle is just super common among the pros for their stock shots. As with every angle I talk about here, they're situational, but the primary reason people are using Tech Disc are with very high speed throws.

Nose: I know -4 has gotten some traction online as a good nose angle, but gyroscopic forces will bring that closer to 0 after release, and I just think that getting the nose as close to that from the get-go is probably best for distance, since we're generally seeing high speed drives for nearly all the throws.

Launch: A 5 launch angle was super common in these throws, and I just think that's likely a sweet spot for distance drives (golf lines, not distance comp lines).

Wobble: The absolute lowest values were in the 0.X range but I think it gives people something to aim for if they can hit about 4 wobble, as I think this is the hardest metric to refine, and is probably the most dependent on getting everything nailed down.