Brace leg and cracking the whip (backhand drive)

[RocHucker]

I've read a lot on here about how important the front leg brace is to a backhand drive, and I've also read that your arm should feel like a whip.

In order to crack a whip, you have to decelerate the base of the whip in order to transfer kinetic energy out towards the tip of the whip. I'm assuming that in our analogy, this would mean that the hips and shoulders must decelerate before the "hit" and thereby transfer energy out to the lower arm and the disc? Is this accurate? And does this mean that the brace leg must decelerate the rotation of the hips before the "hit"?

Or is the above paragraph totally wrong, and it's instead true that the brace leg adds power by turning linear motion into rotational motion (thereby accelerating the hips all the way through the hit rather than decelerating them).

The whip effect makes sense to me intuitively, and I feel like I've read that kind of description several times on these forums. On the other hand, when I watch slomo videos of the pros, I can't see any deceleration of their hips until after the disc has left their hand, which seems to contradict the whip idea...? But maybe that's a trick of the eye.

So I guess my question is twofold:
1) Should hip rotation accelerate all the way through release of the disc, or is there an intentional deceleration of the hips before release of the disc?
2) What effect(s) should the brace leg have on rotational acceleration or deceleration of the hips throughout the various stages of the throw?

Many thanks in advance!

 

[sidewinder22]

Easier to see the hips decelerate in a golf swing with longer lever to release thru the ball. The club head then pull the rest of the body into the finish.

Rotate to the point of contact to release the arm/disc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW-vWZgnNSk#t=2m30s

 

[RocHucker]

Rotate to the point of contact to release the arm/disc.

Thanks! So just to make sure I'm understanding correctly: the brace leg's primary purpose is to decelerate the rotation of the hips (feeling of "stopping" the hips at the point of contact) in order to whip energy out into the arm/disc?

And the hips "clearing" the front leg / the front leg rotating to face in the direction of the throw is only a passive way of dissipating energy in the follow-through in order to avoid injury?

 

[arbutus]

Brace leg acts to stop forward momentum and transfer kinectic energy from the ground up through the body and out the arm/disc as the 'whip' uncoils.

Notice how in gifs and videos of pros whose form is modelled here, they tend to finish in full control and balanced upright on plant leg, casually walking out of the brace. Compared to those who fly through the brace and carry momentum forward, which can be considered as energy wasted or leaking out of the system (and not transferred to the disc).

I'm not sure you want to 'stop the hips from rotating' ... they naturally want (and need) to rotate in order to release the energy upward and through the system. Jamming the hip or putting your body in positions to block natural movement dynamics will increase strain on joints and can lead to injury. But I'd think 'yes' to stopping the hips from moving forward in space — a proper brace and balance will enable smooth rotationof hips and torso as the lead hip clears to make way for the body system to uncoil.

I think it is also true that as the hips, then torso, shoulder and arm rotate away from the trajectory line, the deceleration is happening in two ways: slowing down in rotational velocity as energy moves up the chain, and also that the rotation is moving away from the target line (akin to the whip pulling back to allow the tip fly forward). I may not be articulating this thought accurately.

There was a great series of graphs showing the cascading energy effect /kinetic chain as different body parts and levers unfold through the swing, and the build up and amplification 'up' the system causing increased power/force and eventual acceleration of the arm/club/disc (as prior components decelerate).

See post 39 here (but the whole thread is a gem): https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

Hope this helps? Long time lurker, first time poster!! :-D

 

[sidewinder22]

Right it only makes sense to stop the hip in the linear sense which accelerates rotation initially and then decelerates on it's own. It kind of just happens automatically if you setup properly.

 

[RoDeO]

I've read a lot on here about how important the front leg brace is to a backhand drive, and I've also read that your arm should feel like a whip.

In order to crack a whip, you have to decelerate the base of the whip in order to transfer kinetic energy out towards the tip of the whip. I'm assuming that in our analogy, this would mean that the hips and shoulders must decelerate before the "hit" and thereby transfer energy out to the lower arm and the disc? Is this accurate? And does this mean that the brace leg must decelerate the rotation of the hips before the "hit"?

Or is the above paragraph totally wrong, and it's instead true that the brace leg adds power by turning linear motion into rotational motion (thereby accelerating the hips all the way through the hit rather than decelerating them).

The whip effect makes sense to me intuitively, and I feel like I've read that kind of description several times on these forums. On the other hand, when I watch slomo videos of the pros, I can't see any deceleration of their hips until after the disc has left their hand, which seems to contradict the whip idea...? But maybe that's a trick of the eye.

So I guess my question is twofold:
1) Should hip rotation accelerate all the way through release of the disc, or is there an intentional deceleration of the hips before release of the disc?
2) What effect(s) should the brace leg have on rotational acceleration or deceleration of the hips throughout the various stages of the throw?

Many thanks in advance!

Don't over think it. Do this, no joke-
Stand shoulder feet apart and likely place your arms at your side. Now, keeping your legs planted twist your torso 90 degrees to the side and then quickly turn your hips as fast as you can back the opposite way 180 degrees and pivot on your brace foot and your other leg comes through and watch what happens to your lead arm. It goes flying outwards with a lot of force. No muscles in your arm moved it outward, just the torso muscles did. Now, do the same thing again only this time, instead of letting your arms just fly outwards you are going to control it with a straight motion through you power pocket into release but still let the torso provide the pull and whip. You should find that when you do it correctly the end of your fingers feel really pressurized and weighty as it gets to the release position out front. That is the whip you need to create. Arm strength in throwing is more about guidance strength and strength to hold onto the disc until release.

 

[RocHucker]

Should the throwing shoulder feel like it is under tension (pulling the weight of the disc) from the peak of the reachback all the way through release? Or does the coiling of the arm into the "power pocket" position de-weight the arm and shoulder until the arm extends?

 

[twistedraven]

Let your hips and body weight shift move your relaxed arm from peak of reachback into the power pocket. Once in the power pocket, accelerate with all you got while snapping that elbow. Don't pull with the shoulder.

If you pull too early, you're not really accelerating to a fast release, you're just plateauing and even slowing down by the time you hit the release.

 

[sidewinder22]

Should the throwing shoulder feel like it is under tension (pulling the weight of the disc) from the peak of the reachback all the way through release? Or does the coiling of the arm into the "power pocket" position de-weight the arm and shoulder until the arm extends?

You don't want to lose being pulled taut thru the shoulder/lat or have a bunch a slack, but you will lose some tension bending the elbow and kind of lofting/floating the disc into the PP/center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=7m30s

 

[RoDeO]

Should the throwing shoulder feel like it is under tension (pulling the weight of the disc) from the peak of the reachback all the way through release? Or does the coiling of the arm into the "power pocket" position de-weight the arm and shoulder until the arm extends?

You are going to reach back fully with your arm and then as your hips start to rotate you gently pull the disc into your power pocket area and then the core whips and accelerated the arm through firmly from that point.

 

[azplaya25]

You don't want to lose being pulled taut thru the shoulder/lat or have a bunch a slack, but you will lose some tension bending the elbow and kind of lofting/floating the disc into the PP/center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=7m30s

Honestly, this clip linked here, IMO, is the most important of any of the instructional videos out there. What he's describing- releasing the momentum of the disc/hammer back while the torque from your rear foot takes you forward - then the lag that is created when you brace against the front foot - that's the key to everything. You get that right, your elbow will come shooting forward and you'll feel that bow and arrow/trebuchet feeling everyone talks about.

Seems so easy when he describes it, but I've been working on it for months and still don't have it down consistently. One thing I've found is that you have to have your arm loose. Any amount of strong arming really messes the whole thing up. That's why I cringe when people call it a throw. It is a swing, not a throw. Again, sounds easy , but if you've been "throwing " the disc for years like I have, getting your body to swing your arm instead takes some serious re-wiring of muscle memory.

 

[RocHucker]

Right it only makes sense to stop the hip in the linear sense which accelerates rotation initially and then decelerates on it's own. It kind of just happens automatically if you setup properly.

Trying to figure out the correct feel of "stopping the hip in the linear sense to accelerate rotation". Should it feel like, after I have settled my weight on a bent front leg, my front leg extends and pushes my front hip backwards? And then front hip back plus rear hip continuing forward equals rotation of the hips to power the shot?

 

[sidewinder22]

It's all one fluid motion. Your front leg will get compressed/bent from your weight/gravity and you need to resist/load/push against that compression so your leg doesn't collapse and will spring back up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrSbWfNMapE#t=4m

 

[RocHucker]

It's all one fluid motion. Your front leg will get compressed/bent from your weight/gravity and you need to resist/load/push against that compression so your leg doesn't collapse and will spring back up.

And is this resist/load/push in the front leg the thing that powers the hip rotation?

In the form analysis/critique section, I just put up a video of myself trying to capture the right feeling.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137436

 

[RocHucker]

Ok, so I posted this question in the "One leg drill, stupid question" thread, but I think that that thread has devolved into a bit of a flame war, so I'm reposting here.

Question about the brace:
When the brace leg juices the throw, is it a "bump" or a press and hold?
In other words, imagine that there's a pressure sensor under my brace foot. Should the pressure spike as I shift weight to it and then decrease sharply before the upper body comes through the throw, or does the pressure rise as I settle onto the front foot and stay high until I've completed my follow through? Or something else?

When I think about whipping my tennis forehand, the pressure is more of a bump in my lead foot. On my disc golf backhand, should I be going for the same bump and whip feeling as the tennis forehand, but the feeling is that I'm swinging lefty and hitting a ball that's slightly behind me (due to use of lead shoulder instead of trailing shoulder)? I know that the throw would probably correlate better to my tennis backhand, but I've never felt the ground up power quite as well on my tennis backhand.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sudden shift/bounce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=1m30s

 

[seedlings]

Watch his head pause at impact. This is his weight planting which braces his arms to crack the whip. If there is no momentary pause (brace), there will still be a throw, but it seems the efficiency diminishes. I dunno... trying to work this all out myself.

 

[Davos805]

Watch his head pause at impact. This is his weight planting which braces his arms to crack the whip. If there is no momentary pause (brace), there will still be a throw, but it seems the efficiency diminishes. I dunno... trying to work this all out myself.

This is actually a great video for catching this phenomenon. I was watching the MVP Open and noticed a weird hitch in all of the players throws on hole 1. Probably related to them trying to get max distance.

They are all spinning and throwing, none of that straight pull, or lever/whip stuff.

https://youtu.be/d7nqh7LIIeA?t=180

Get tucked in to the power pocket, braced forward, strong grip pressure, and spin as fast as you can while not collapsing the shoulder or elbow. Think of it more like raising a shield in front of you than trying to elbow a door.

I personally feel that people chasing the straight pull, elbow smash/lever stuff will never get anywhere. It sets you up for failure as there is no natural pathway from that to getting your body in the right spot.

Look at pauls upshot technique too. It is a slowed down full power throw, he just skips the reachback. Watch the arm though, does exactly the same thing. Across the front and rips out when the shoulder starts going backwards slightly.

 

[DiscFifty]

Look at pauls upshot technique too.

I frequently do because it's a great tool to understand. Especially when he keeps his eyes almost straight forward the entire throw. To my eyes he's using alot of wrist/snap much less arm and way more elbow to wrist.

 

[DiscFifty]

Might as well put this question here... does this describe bracing....at all?

You're inside a car going very fast, at the finish line car 1 goes past the finish line and the player throws a disc at the same time. Car 2 instantly stops at the finish line as the player throws the disc. Wouldn't car 2's throw be ejected from the car much faster?