Clarifications on 90 degree angles?

[DarwinDave]

Hello all! Thanks in advance for your responses. I'm just going to word vomit way too many questions at once...

Regarding keeping the 90 degree angle between the shoulder and upper arm... After reading bits here and there on these forums, I'm curious... when is it acceptable to have this angle less or more (acute or obtuse)? Does it only break open wide after the hit, into the follow through? Or does it become more than 90 before the hit due to the elbow firing through and the shoulders staying a bit behind?

As a visual to where the elbow is in proper BH form, would it be safe to say that correct timing is the same as keeping your arm out completely straight and always 90 degrees to your shoulders, and that the only thing that keeps the disc on a straight line of play is the bend in the elbow?

I had an interesting flaw built up over the years from taking the advice of "firing the elbow through" incorrectly. It got to the point where my elbow wasn't firing out, but rather close to my body, causing all sorts of inconsistencies with a low elbow. I was so determined to "pull through on a straight line" that I developed this weird kink where, in an effort to almost pull the elbow thru on the line instead of a hinge and the disc itself, which forced my shoulder up high near the hit and on the follow through in an attempt to get my elbow more on plane and higher. Anyway, just thought I'd share. I had never heard of a too high shoulder issue until I posted a form critique video on reddit and got served a heaping pile of humble pie

Back on to 90 degree angles... should the angle of the spine be at a 90 compared to the upper arm as well? Is that the thinking process when people talk about adjusting the spine when it comes to rollers (lean back) compared to hyzers (lean forward)? If so, are there situations that you wouldn't maintain that angle, like throwing a spike hyzer or grenade? Or would you still be trying to maintain it?

Like I said, word vomit. Just pick a part you understand and answer lol

 

[sidewinder22]

I recommend much wider than 90 degrees for upper arm angle, so your elbow is always relatively forward of the shoulder and allows the lower arm/disc to swing in closer to your center/chest. The lower arm lever is much more important than the upper arm lever. I visualize almost keeping the upper arm inline with the shoulders(180 degrees, but more like 135) and use it as one big lever with the shoulders/hips, and then just using the elbow as a hinge to swing the lower arm/disc into chest/center and then out.

2nd part, basically yes, change the spine tilt angle/balance for different release angles, arm is always swinging on the same plane perpendicular to spine.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I had an interesting flaw built up over the years from taking the advice of "firing the elbow through" incorrectly. It got to the point where my elbow wasn't firing out, but rather close to my body, causing all sorts of inconsistencies with a low elbow. I was so determined to "pull through on a straight line" that I developed this weird kink where, in an effort to almost pull the elbow thru on the line instead of a hinge and the disc itself, which forced my shoulder up high near the hit and on the follow through in an attempt to get my elbow more on plane and higher. Anyway, just thought I'd share. I had never heard of a too high shoulder issue until I posted a form critique video on reddit and got served a heaping pile of humble pie

This is my newest problem. I've been so concentrating on foot work I wasn't even aware at how bad i'm hugging myself. I knew there was something wrong because when i've thrown a lot I get a big knot just to the spine side of my right shoulder blade and up toward my trapeziums. I think I started it in a similar fashion and thought I was getting good results, especially in accuracy but now I"m looking and seeing besides the knot in my back i'm not even close to the right pec and thinking this is definitely zapping some distance.

Now, question is what drills to get my upper arm angle fixed? Hopefully it doesn't revert my footwork back as that is better but not done being worked on yet.
When I really think about it now and get that elbow out away from my body I have 1 of two potential problems.
1. Horrendous rounding into a griplock... and not a powerful griplock either
2. Super nose up (I think this has to do with uncomfort with my tennis elbow and that arm angle) this can also end up with a slip out early as I can't maintain grip.

 

[DarwinDave]

Yep, you're picture looks exactly like my video I referenced earlier when i go through it frame by frame. High shoulder but low elbow, collapsed 90 degree angle...

Although I'm sure it's terrible form, I've taken to imagining that my shoulder line and upper arm are "stuck" in a 90 and can only move as a unit together. I've actually added more power, but the inconsistent release angles can creep up in the same way as rounding causes issues. It's actually more consistent and i'm throwing further and much more effortlessly, but might just be because my previous form was even worse?

Also, I've began swinging my entire body as one instead of worrying too much about the hips leading. Just from full reachback, its my rear inner knee that is the trigger, by collapsing and twisting inward, but after that, everything is swinging through together. Possible its not, and only feels that way, but it's definitely MUCH easier to repeat and a littel longer and straighter flights... Thoughts?

I'll take and post some video soon.

 

[RandyC]

I am going to guess that you swing too far back that you are unable to get to the starting position. You should always be able to get to the right pec position, literally feel that you are able to do that. I bet there is a wisdom of nugget video by Shawn Clement where he is talking about this "Do I still feel like I am going to the target etc."

 

[sidewinder22]

Now, question is what drills to get my upper arm angle fixed?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Thanks SW... funny enough I think i knew the answer as soon as I posted the above I went to re-watch a few times the Beto drill as well as some of HUBs videos on the hit and slowing down the Beto drill. I need to re-watch the closed shoulder snap again its been a while it is is what I *thought* I was doing with getting the disc pulled through on a line. Seems like i'm getting the hand out where it should be if i'm snapping a towel but my elbow height is all over the place... thus Beto drill.

I am going to guess that you swing too far back that you are unable to get to the starting position.

Interesting is that I actually think on most of my throws I am not actually able to reach back full enough. Like even at a very slow X-step I feel too rushed and I've figured I would address that at some other point. I think not getting to the right pec has more to do with this shoulder shrug stopping the elbow from going much further forward. A more relaxed shoulder will have much better range of motion.

Kind of excited about fixing this...

I see a lot of people release back here and plateau about a 350' to 380' average... from here to here add from 60' to 100' or more

Sound like where I have been.

 

[RandyC]

Interesting is that I actually think on most of my throws I am not actually able to reach back full enough. Like even at a very slow X-step I feel too rushed and I've figured I would address that at some other point.

It´s not really about how far or where you reachback. Imagine hammering a nail from that right pec position, it has to feel that you are always able to hit that nail without changing your posture. When you start your reachback very slowly you will notice a point where your brain can´t tell anymore what you are doing, that would indicate youve lost your posture. It has to _feel_ that you are always able to hit that nail.

 

[DarwinDave]

Embarrassing realities forthcoming.

So, in all 8 years of my obsessive drive to get better, I've never taken the Beto Drill video seriously... until today. I remember seeing it years ago and thinking, "I'm going to look ridiculous out there throwing 40 foot shots from my pec with no reach back. This is stupid. It's impossible to generate more power if the acceleration starts from there instead of back further."

I've never been more pleased with myself and diasappointed from not trying it before at the same time in my life!

PLEASE watch the above Beto video above and try it if you haven't.

It was too dark to record, and I still don't think my elbow is firing out far enough, but I think that's to be expected as years of muscle memory doesn't shake off in one evening.

Before and after videos to follow soon. Hope they can help others see the importance of this milestone. I'll see if I can get a friend to help and post a multi angle shot.

Can't wait to start progressing out of this distance rut! I have a 6 foot wingspan and no injuries or physical limitations to speak of... I knew being capped around the 350 mark was beatable! Thanks everyone!

 

[playdiscdotgolf]

This post really helped me to understand the swing and 90 degree angle. I thought the same about the 90 degree reference. The 90 degree angle is achieved by the start of the hip rotation and not opening the shoulder too early. See https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114639