Course Maintenance or Vandalism?

[F.Luke]

Just posted in the Michigan Course Update thread:

"Looks like the baskets at Pioneer Trail Park will be pulled Oct. 9 when the park closes. An article in the newspaper today blamed damage done to the woods by disc golfers, specifically the two local clubs, as the reason for the closure. I don't know what to say.... "

This is very important to the discussion. Here is a potential situation where clubs, who I assume were authorized to maintain a course, crossed a line between good clean up and bad.

I don't want this thread to be about my home course's plight. There is a difference between maintenance and damage. What is the difference?


Biscoe, I do want to work with the doubles boys here to formalize a club. I just hope there is more dedication among more members than other clubs in other places I've been involved with.

 

[ru4por]

Just posted in the Michigan Course Update thread:

"Looks like the baskets at Pioneer Trail Park will be pulled Oct. 9 when the park closes. An article in the newspaper today blamed damage done to the woods by disc golfers, specifically the two local clubs, as the reason for the closure. I don't know what to say.... "

After talking with the OP above, there seems to be a bit more going on. But, a cautionary tale none the less. Even being careful as to whom we get permission to do work from could be vital. We may think the permission is a good source, but actually could be someone stepping out of their authority. Lot's of things can easily go wrong, and losing a course is the ultimate downside. Cooperation, communication and fostering a professional relationship with the powers that be will go a long way in preventing even errors and misunderstandings.

 

[KniceZ]

Just posted in the Michigan Course Update thread:

"Looks like the baskets at Pioneer Trail Park will be pulled Oct. 9 when the park closes. An article in the newspaper today blamed damage done to the woods by disc golfers, specifically the two local clubs, as the reason for the closure. I don't know what to say.... "

Is this referring to unapproved cutting / breaking down the trees or is this people complaining about the scarring caused by discs hitting trees? If the two local clubs took it on themselves to cut trees without permission then they deserve getting the courses pulled.

 

[F.Luke]

Is this referring to unapproved cutting / breaking down the trees or is this people complaining about the scarring caused by discs hitting trees? If the two local clubs took it on themselves to cut trees without permission then they deserve getting the courses pulled.

There is further discussion on that situation in the michigan courses update thread. It seems erosion and other things were concerns.

I hate to hear of any course being pulled. This is why I'd like to understand where people feel the line is between improvement and damage.

 

[KniceZ]

Is it correct to assume that removal of dead and already broken off limbs from fairways and around baskets is acceptable even without official permission?

What about :
dead limbs that are still attached?
fast growing vines such as kudzu hanging down in the fairway?
Branches that have grown out and block the tee pad? (Actually happening on a poorly maintained course near me)
Shifting rocks to create a better path to cross small creeks?
Removing sand / gravel that's washed onto the tee pad?

I'm sure there are a lot more situations where some would say they aren't impacting the design. Once we say it's ok to do this but not that - there will be a gray area because what's obviously wrong in one persons opinion is obviously similar to what's ok for another.

 

[joecoin]

Thug' is correct.
@ Joecoin, you DO NOT own the park because you pay taxes. Where the #$% did you get that nonsense? You sound like the fools who toppled the sandstone structure at the Oregon Coast, the other day. Total morons. I hope you fire up your Stihl, and I hope you get arrested.

Dear John,

I'm not a total moron, some of my parts are on back order.

My post was a devils advocate argument.

You probably own a Husqvarna.

I haven't been arrested in over 35 years, guess I'm due. That doesn't scare me.

So, who does own the public parks?

 

[Karl]

So, who does own the public parks?

Public parks, as with other "public property" are (usually) owned by the municipality they are within. A better question is "who is the 'steward' of said park"? In most towns, the selectman / alderman / mayor / town manager has - via being elected - been given that position...and with it the authority to delegate responsibilities for the maintenance of ALL town properties. If one gets - directly or indirectly - the okay from them to do such, fine. If not, you should not touch anything. It has nothing to do with being a tax payer. If YOU want that responsibility you had better win that election (otherwise you give de facto abdicated responsibility to the elected official).

 

[dashiellx]

Is this referring to unapproved cutting / breaking down the trees or is this people complaining about the scarring caused by discs hitting trees? If the two local clubs took it on themselves to cut trees without permission then they deserve getting the courses pulled.

Damage prompts disc golf closure

From the article:

However, he added disc golfers have been treating the course and the park poorly as of late. In addition to other acts of vandalism, 42 trees have been illegally cut down at Pioneer Trail Park since late May. The unauthorized removal of leaf and shrub cover from the course's fairways has also caused problems for the park, as the roots of some trees have been exposed to the elements because of this.

Mattson said he believes members of local disc golf clubs Smoking Chains Disc Golf Club and Noc Bay Flyers are primarily to blame for the current situation.

"...We created something good for the community, and these two groups have been nothing but a burr," he said.

Still, he noted that the majority of these groups' members have not caused problems for the park.

"I think it's the two groups, but it's not everybody in the groups," Mattson said. "There are individuals in those groups that are determined that they're going to have their way up there, and they're going to take it over."

 

[Noill]

that sounds like pointing the finger with only an assumption of guilt... it would be nice if he stated that clearly... "I assume it was the clubs, but have no proof."

Also, a more mature first attempt would have been to discuss these issues with those two clubs... though, it's unclear if this step was attempted and failed.

Thanks for just blaming the clubs and making them pariahs. That's helpful... :\

 

[dashiellx]

that sounds like pointing the finger with only an assumption of guilt... it would be nice if he stated that clearly... "I assume it was the clubs, but have no proof."

Also, a more mature first attempt would have been to discuss these issues with those two clubs... though, it's unclear if this step was attempted and failed.

Thanks for just blaming the clubs and making them pariahs. That's helpful... :\

Sorry. I didn't mean to place blame, I was just citing the article. Please edit my quote to remove what you feel is unnecessary.

 

[Noill]

Though I totally agree if true. If the clubs (or some members or any disc golfers for that matter) were cutting down trees, the course should be pulled. Especially if some outreach was attempted and failed.

Disc golfers do no have the right to take it upon themselves to work on public parks property. Regardless of how it may or may not improve the conditions of the course... it simply is not their property. Also, if the course was becoming overgrown, all have to play in the same conditions... so it is fair to all the players to have these obstacles... figure out how to deal with the obstacles to become a better player. Don't take out trees or what-not just b/c it is the personal opinion of a disc golfer (or group) that this or that tree/bush/etc should go to improve the conditions of a course on public property.

if a tree is just dead and can simply be pushed over, that's one thing... a healthy tree that happens to have grown in the fairway or where ever is not fair-game to be cut...

I know the OP gets this now so I'm not trying to shame... simply inform. This is so ingrained in me that I even have trouble cutting down stuff on my private course... I have to remind myself that this is my tree and my property... I can cut this if I think it makes sense for the course. I don't break branches or anything like this on public property... ever.

 

[Noill]

Sorry. I didn't mean to place blame, I was just citing the article. Please edit my quote to remove what you feel is unnecessary.

I didn't mean you were doing this... I meant the person that was quoted and the office he represents. You were just sharing that all with us...

Don't shoot the messenger and all that...

 

[Atvizory2000]

Is it correct to assume that removal of dead and already broken off limbs from fairways and around baskets is acceptable even without official permission?

What about :
dead limbs that are still attached?
fast growing vines such as kudzu hanging down in the fairway?
Branches that have grown out and block the tee pad? (Actually happening on a poorly maintained course near me)
Shifting rocks to create a better path to cross small creeks?
Removing sand / gravel that's washed onto the tee pad?

I'm sure there are a lot more situations where some would say they aren't impacting the design. Once we say it's ok to do this but not that - there will be a gray area because what's obviously wrong in one persons opinion is obviously similar to what's ok for another.

I always do this at local courses. I consider it course cleanup, not course maintenance.

 

[ru4por]

I always do this at local courses. I consider it course cleanup, not course maintenance.

I am pretty sure our disc golf friends at Pioneer Trails would have said the same thing.

 

[KniceZ]

I am pretty sure our disc golf friends at Pioneer Trails would have said the same thing.

My point exactly!

So let's get back to the question - at what point does it go from OK to vandalism? Give specific examples not just - if you've got no approval you can't do anything.

For me:
Moving downed limbs anywhere in the fairway and near stance if off-fairway - OK
Removing broken dead limbs hung in the trees on or near fairway - OK (safety)
Cleaning debris off / encroaching on tee pad - OK
Minor removal of briars and dead twigs near stance just enough to stand & throw - OK (I know that will be controversial)
Breaking / cutting live limbs - vandalism
Stomping / breaking down tall brush along flight path - vandalism
Cutting or pushing over whole trees (alive or dead) - vandalism

 

[F.Luke]

Though I totally agree if true. If the clubs (or some members or any disc golfers for that matter) were cutting down trees, the course should be pulled. Especially if some outreach was attempted and failed.

Disc golfers do no have the right to take it upon themselves to work on public parks property. Regardless of how it may or may not improve the conditions of the course... it simply is not their property. Also, if the course was becoming overgrown, all have to play in the same conditions... so it is fair to all the players to have these obstacles... figure out how to deal with the obstacles to become a better player. Don't take out trees or what-not just b/c it is the personal opinion of a disc golfer (or group) that this or that tree/bush/etc should go to improve the conditions of a course on public property.

if a tree is just dead and can simply be pushed over, that's one thing... a healthy tree that happens to have grown in the fairway or where ever is not fair-game to be cut...

I know the OP gets this now so I'm not trying to shame... simply inform. This is so ingrained in me that I even have trouble cutting down stuff on my private course... I have to remind myself that this is my tree and my property... I can cut this if I think it makes sense for the course. I don't break branches or anything like this on public property... ever.

I got it then too.

What tools and methods available to authorized volunteers will vary depending on the municipality. In SC I would simply go to the rec dept and tell them, "I am taking my truck onto the course to do some cleanup." They would say, "ok." I could run a chainsaw (for deadfall only), lawnmower, or weedeater with impunity. I and other club members (usually just I) were allowed because we absolved the city from liability (verbal agreement, so that probably wouldn't fly in a larger area).

When I had help from others there was always a battle with people who wanted wider fairways or new lines. I was called the treehugger because I believed the fairways were set by the designer and we were working solely for esthetics and playability.

Re: course conditions being fair since all play the same condition: this may be a quibble but I believe there is a difference between equality and fairness. Overgrown fairways are not fair even though its the same for everyone.

Most of us can agree that picking up litter and removing fallen deadwood is acceptable. Dropping dead trees may be acceptable to some but not otherss since standing dead trees are homes for squirrels, woodpeckers and other wildlife

The real key is working with the ptb to know what is acceptable. It seems that with the MI course pulled the erosion problems were cause by simple use of the course. Thus playing dg is destructive. There is no universal definition of what is acceptable so we must foster good relationships with parks depts and effectively manage renegade course work.

 

[F.Luke]

Couldn't edit to add this:

I believe a well maintained course (with permission) can limit, though not prevent wanton damage to the course.

 

[DavidSauls]

There is no universal definition of what is acceptable so we must foster good relationships with parks depts and effectively manage renegade course work.

This, more than anything. The answer may vary from course to course.

Though knowing what is allowed/permissible/accepted will go a long way. And that includes knowing who is authorized to do it.

Generally speaking, it's a good idea to have one person, or a small group, with the final say-so. Otherwise, if I make cuts where I think the course needs them, and you do the same, and Joe and Mark and Larry too, pretty soon we're playing in a desert.

*

FYI. When Owens Field was installed in Columbia, SC, some neighbors looked upon it as their own protected wilderness, and any work was bound to cause trouble.

 

[ru4por]

My point exactly!

So let's get back to the question - at what point does it go from OK to vandalism? Give specific examples not just - if you've got no approval you can't do anything.

For me:
Moving downed limbs anywhere in the fairway and near stance if off-fairway - OK
Removing broken dead limbs hung in the trees on or near fairway - OK (safety)
Cleaning debris off / encroaching on tee pad - OK
Minor removal of briars and dead twigs near stance just enough to stand & throw - OK (I know that will be controversial)
Breaking / cutting live limbs - vandalism
Stomping / breaking down tall brush along flight path - vandalism
Cutting or pushing over whole trees (alive or dead) - vandalism

I think David summarized it pretty well. It is going to be a different answer with each course and steward. Wisdom dictates setting up very specific guidelines, if you are the one or couple municipal designated folks doing the clean up. Safe to say, without specific appointment, it is not your job to touch anything attached, living or part of the course.

I imagine some are going to want to twist this to mean sand on a tee box, a branch in a fairway....I think removing these would be OK.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Our local course has given the OK to two people (the original course designer and myself) to clear overgrowth of woods in unused portions of the park for new holes. They know us by sight, and we apprise them of our work party days when unknowns may be helping.
The parks dept. likes it because, except for the price of baskets, it doesn't cost them a cent. The original install had the added benefit of eliminating the gay hookup spot.
The joggers and dog-walkers like it (as does the city) as striking vistas of the bay and marina have been opened up.
Discers like it 'cause they get new/improved holes.
We like it, because we control the destiny of our course.

We don't tolerate ANYONE making alterations to the course on their own. More than once we've called the cops to report vandalism by discers playing the course. A group of out-of-staters cutting trees were told by the city not to come back or they would be charged.

I do not alter anything on other courses I play (excepting downed branches from storms, which I'll move to throw). I also think its OK to remove running vines in pathways that might trip or otherwise injure someone.