Discmania splits with Innova

[glassila]

Can you imagine if Conrad's throw-in spit out like Ezra's near ace?

I don't know if I would call Ezra's throw a spit out. It missed the chains on the way in, hit the inside of the basket and ricocheted out just clipping the chains as it exited.

In my experience long throw ins and ace runs just don't always stay in the basket even when they hit a lot of chains.

There were definitely several bad chain outs during the tournament, but I don't know if any basket would have caught Ezra's throw.

 

[aredoubles]

Ultiworld with some reporting, especially on Discmania's relationship with Lat64 and with Innova - https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/2021/07/02/inside-discmanias-decision-to-open-a-dedicated-factory/

 

[wolfhaley]

Not trying to be negative or anything, but wouldn't the "originals" be the least original in the lineup now? Technically Evolution and Active are older molds/lines. I'll give credit where it's due, but these aren't the originals anymore. Discmania is fantastic at marketing though. But people were all over Rivers and Saints and Zeus's too. Now everyone just throws Leo 3's, Sidewinders and Wraiths/Destros again. Or Stalker, Undertaker, Force/Zeus. Whatever it is.

 

[Rastnav]

Not trying to be negative or anything, but wouldn't the "originals" be the least original in the lineup now? Technically Evolution and Active are older molds/lines. I'll give credit where it's due, but these aren't the originals anymore. Discmania is fantastic at marketing though. But people were all over Rivers and Saints and Zeus's too. Now everyone just throws Leo 3's, Sidewinders and Wraiths/Destros again. Or Stalker, Undertaker, Force/Zeus. Whatever it is.

Technically, the new product from the Discmania is going to be PDGA approved as the "New P2". So, yeah, they aren't the original disc. However, given the vagaries of disc production, it's not like you could ever count on getting the same P2 you'd always gotten anyway. If it looks like, feels like and flies like a P2, to within some tolerance, and is available in plastics, weights, colors, and stamps people like, it will sell.

I'm not sure who the "everyone" you are talking about is, but plenty of people throw Trilogy, MVP, Discraft, etc. molds. Last year there were visible complaints about too many people throwing too many Trilogy molds (with references to "fanbois").

If you have a 40 year history with Innova discs, you are probably going to return to what you know. But anyone already committed to a P2 wasn't quite in that vein. Not to say that the P2 wasn't an Innova product, but something drew people to throwing the P2 instead of the Aviar. And the new P2 will actually be in supply.

Maybe Innova or Infinite will start selling the "Pappa Deuce", with the same Aviar+Spacer mold setup, but it's not as if Innova has suddenly added capacity. If they couldn't make P2s for Discmania, they probably can't make significantly more Pappa Ds or Alpacas or whatever. Plus, Discmania is Innovas big European distributor. I suppose they could spit on that relationship if they want, but why?

 

[gammaxgoblin]

Not trying to be negative or anything, but wouldn't the "originals" be the least original in the lineup now? Technically Evolution and Active are older molds/lines. I'll give credit where it's due, but these aren't the originals anymore. Discmania is fantastic at marketing though. But people were all over Rivers and Saints and Zeus's too. Now everyone just throws Leo 3's, Sidewinders and Wraiths/Destros again. Or Stalker, Undertaker, Force/Zeus. Whatever it is.

Innova could call their DM discs "ogP2, ogPD" etc, and probably should since they are being directly copied and ripped off by discamnia. haha i kid, but seriously.

 

[ChrisWoj]

And practice rounds? They throw so many discs from one spot, it's easy to forget where a disc went.

Definitely an example of a time of day that the devil's lettuce does NOT enhance your experience.

I never wear myself out more than when I'm looking for a disc.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Innova could call their DM discs "ogP2, ogPD" etc, and probably should since they are being directly copied and ripped off by discamnia. haha i kid, but seriously.

The technical standards state:

The PDGA does not referee name conflicts and expects the affected manufacturers to resolve naming issues before a new disc can be approved.

But I've gotta assume the PDGA would step in and at least say something to get the companies to interact so that this could be dealt with without the disc naming process getting dragged into a petty ****storm.

The line before that reads:

Manufacturers should review the PDGA Approved Discs list to make sure their proposed disc name will not be too similar to a previously approved disc made by another manufacturer.

While intentionally nebulous, it at least indicates that the PDGA is on the record as being against the situation you describe occurring.

 

[gammaxgoblin]

The technical standards state:

But I've gotta assume the PDGA would step in and at least say something to get the companies to interact so that this could be dealt with without the disc naming process getting dragged into a petty ****storm.

The line before that reads:

While intentionally nebulous, it at least indicates that the PDGA is on the record as being against the situation you describe occurring.

I hear what you are saying so in that regard how about:
PeeTwo, PeeToo,
PeeDee, PI>, PI],

Now im just being ridiculous. Innova will likely develop a "new technology" like Vtech or 3tech....lets say Dtech in this case and launch a new line of discs that are Dtech enabled.

 

[Rastnav]

Discmania is already on record (in a recent interview with Ultiworld) that they submitted the putter they are manufacturing to the PDGA as the "New P2".

 

[wims]

That's not have I read it. I read it as their new P2 has been submitted to PDGA for approval. The name is "P2", not the "New P2"

 

[seedlings]

Per the rules cited above *made by another manufacturer. Will Innova be considered the 'another manufacurer' or Discmania? If Discmania then the name can be identical.

 

[wims]

Discmania owns the name. Of course they can keep it.

 

[Hampstead]

And yet Innova owns the molds, right?

What's the name if it's not the thing?

 

[ejvogie]

Sounds like a bunch of legal gray area neither company is likely to want involvement with

 

[Rastnav]

That's not have I read it. I read it as their new P2 has been submitted to PDGA for approval. The name is "P2", not the "New P2"

Jussi Meresma as quoted by Ultiworld

The different molds do mean that the newly-produced Swedish Originals will be classified as different discs in the eyes of the Professional Disc Golf Association. The disc might be called simply a P2, but it's not the exact same P2 that players bought last year.

"It will be PDGA approved next week," said Meresmaa. "And the name will be 'new P2.'"

 

[Rastnav]

And yet Innova owns the molds, right?

What's the name if it's not the thing?

Discmania owns the name, so Innova can't produce discs called P2s without Discmania's say so. Innova owns the mold+spacer combination, so Discmania can't produce them either.

I believe that if Innova wants to use the precise mold + spacer combination that produced the original P2s to produce some other named disc, they would need to submit copies of that disc to the PDGA for approval as the new name. They may have already done this under a few different names, depending on whether you believe that, as some claim, the Firefly or Alpaca are really the same mold combo as the P2.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Discmania owns the name, so Innova can't produce discs called P2s without Discmania's say so. Innova owns the mold+spacer combination, so Discmania can't produce them either.

I believe that if Innova wants to use the precise mold + spacer combination that produced the original P2s to produce some other named disc, they would need to submit copies of that disc to the PDGA for approval as the new name. They may have already done this under a few different names, depending on whether you believe that, as some claim, the Firefly or Alpaca are really the same mold combo as the P2.

Beast.

There's only one disc names Beast on the approved list. Other molds are as you described. Eagle has "Eagle (old)" and "Eagle (new)" but the Beast is only the Beast. Despite Innova changing the mold.

Couldn't the same be done by Discmania? Has some process been eliminated over time? Has a loophole been closed (I'd call it more option than loophole)?

 

[wolfhaley]

Beast.

There's only one disc names Beast on the approved list. Other molds are as you described. Eagle has "Eagle (old)" and "Eagle (new)" but the Beast is only the Beast. Despite Innova changing the mold.

Couldn't the same be done by Discmania? Has some process been eliminated over time? Has a loophole been closed (I'd call it more option than loophole)?

They still sell Eagle X's and L's in G* at the proshop. Wasn't there something similar with the Beast? Though they are all just labeled as Beasts. I don't remember off hand about that one.

 

[biscoe]

They still sell Eagle X's and L's in G* at the proshop. Wasn't there something similar with the Beast? Though they are all just labeled as Beasts. I don't remember off hand about that one.

There were discs stamped Beast-X. I had forgotten all about them but one passed through the lost and found at the Roost just last week.

 

[Rastnav]

Beast.

There's only one disc names Beast on the approved list. Other molds are as you described. Eagle has "Eagle (old)" and "Eagle (new)" but the Beast is only the Beast. Despite Innova changing the mold.

Couldn't the same be done by Discmania? Has some process been eliminated over time? Has a loophole been closed (I'd call it more option than loophole)?

A P2 manufactured in Sweden is going to be stamped and marketed as simply a P2. If you go buy an Eagle from Innova, you are just buying an Eagle. It's only the name at the PDGA that distinguishes it.

As to loopholes, what happened with the Beast, etc. I'm not someone who understands the long history of the sport to be able to guess at that. I imagine that, like any sport, things have become much more codified and formal over time. Plus, how many times has an entire brand completely split away from a manufacturer? Is this a first? I'd imagine that Discmania also wants to dot Is and cross Ts on this, to ensure they can't get caught up by any snafus.