Driving the elbow vs keeping the shoulder closed

[DiscJunkie]

I'm no swing teacher, but these are my experiences.
YMMV...

I think the concept of driving the elbow is a good remedial exercise.
It's a good swing thought to keep you from leading with the wrist/hand - which so many new players want to do.
However, I have found that as your throw develops, and you learn how to use your body turn, that concept of leading with the elbow can have negative consequences.
I was there, struggling to figure out why my throw was so inconsistent and my distance wasn't where it should be when I heard this newest explanation from BW.
The light went off and it made sense.
Now I'm working on this snap thing and the closed shoulders.
Not easy, but it is what I've been missing

 

[DiscJunkie]

You can see the 10:00 position around 12 seconds in.

 

[Discusted]

Yeah this is the thing...you use your torso to turn your elbow. Keep the upper arm wide, use your body weight to really smash down something with your elbow...when people have felt it that's why they say that. But it's extremely misleading as you shouldn't disconnect your arm/shoulder by trying to elbow out to the side.

As the torso starts to open and if the upper arm angle is maintained, the elbow starts to move to the side and this starts the arc, without the shoulder opening yet.

Thanks. This clarifies a lot for me. I never could understand the driving the elbow advice. But if it's the rotation of the body that's moving that elbow it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Discusted]

I have completely given up on driving the elbow. I drive the extension from a bent arm. The elbow starts out been approximately 90 degrees or slightly less and then is fully uncocked at 10 o'clock and the chest is facing the 10 o'clock position arm straight out in front of you. This is what I call slapping the Midget. The back of your hand reaches 10 o'clock your arm is fully extended and your chest is exactly facing 10 o'clock in perfect sync with your arm. The more you practice this without a disc the more you will see that your chest catching up with your arm at the extension is a big part of the hit. Your legs move your butt and your butt moves your chest and your chest moves your arm and the elbow uncock moves your hand. It is a chain of unfolding levers that all unfold perfectly at the moment that that the disc ejects from your hand at full extension at 10 o'clock

I think it might be best for you to temporarily unlearn everything you ever learned and just work with trying to achieve this position and feel the full extension and the crazy level of acceleration that you can achieve to the point where your fingers will tingle if you do it fast and hard enough without a disk. All of the blood will go to your fingers because of the centrifical force reaches of Pinnacle at full extension as you snap your chest to ten o'clock and all of the levers lineup from the center of your rotation which is your neck through to your right hip joint.

Reading this I'm pretty sure I've figured out why I can't get past my distance plateau. I understand the concept, legs move the hips, hips move the shoulders, corked until the release at 10' o clock which also causes the plant foot to go from closed to open. I think my biggest issue is getting my hips/legs/feet to turn from the reachback position all the way to the 10' o clock position in one fluid and accelerating (it accelerates right?) motion. I am pretty sure the throw I've been using is a spine twist where my legs aren't really involved much and it's beating up my lower back because of this.

So I primarily do a stand still because I've heard that's the best way for a beginner to learn. Any tips on making sure your lower body is doing all the right things to get that power?

 

[Discusted]

I feel my hips turn first, then my shoulders, and lastly my pull through. When I do that (and feel it), the disc comes out of my hand with 15-20mph more than if my timing is off. At first, I thought it was more elbow angle but I'm starting to see what BW is saying. Using this info last weekend, I hit 500 on golf lines several times, and I'm 44. It's all about timing, not physical strength.

All about timing. Yeh that makes sense. I see small guys throw much farther than bigger, buffer guys all the time. This post is encouraging. I think I need to start at square one. Currently, with my throw Im pretty sure my hips/legs aren't driving the torso/shoulder rotation. It feels like I'm just twisting my spine to get back into the reachback which is leading to me topping out at 250' no matter how wide my reachback, or how long I'm able to grip that disc before it releases. I find it very awkward to get my feet/hips to rotate from the reachbacked position all the way to 10' o clock position and beyond.

 

[Discusted]

You can see the 10:00 position around 12 seconds in.

Yeh this makes sense. Funny enough, last week I was on this video watching that 12 second mark over and over. So I get that the shoulder's are closed there, and that's when the lower arm uncorks. It's getting from reachback to 10' o clock position that I seem to have issues with. It's like my feet/hips just aren't used to the motion

 

[RandyC]

Reading this I'm pretty sure I've figured out why I can't get past my distance plateau. I understand the concept, legs move the hips, hips move the shoulders, corked until the release at 10' o clock which also causes the plant foot to go from closed to open. I think my biggest issue is getting my hips/legs/feet to turn from the reachback position all the way to the 10' o clock position in one fluid and accelerating (it accelerates right?) motion. I am pretty sure the throw I've been using is a spine twist where my legs aren't really involved much and it's beating up my lower back because of this.

So I primarily do a stand still because I've heard that's the best way for a beginner to learn. Any tips on making sure your lower body is doing all the right things to get that power?

Tips on making sure your lower body is doing all the right things. Toss a hammer without thinking any disc golf moves. Just let it swing freely and toss the weight. Fluid and effortless.

 

[Bradley Walker]

The absolute most notable thing for me is the disc exploding straight out of my hand in a direction literally from a line from rotation center to my fingers.

You spin a ball on a string around your head and the string breaks.

Its a totally different and better feeling. No. Longer propelling the disc forward but outward from my center. Then just point it.

 

[deyo7]

Reading this I'm pretty sure I've figured out why I can't get past my distance plateau. I understand the concept, legs move the hips, hips move the shoulders, corked until the release at 10' o clock which also causes the plant foot to go from closed to open. I think my biggest issue is getting my hips/legs/feet to turn from the reachback position all the way to the 10' o clock position in one fluid and accelerating (it accelerates right?) motion. I am pretty sure the throw I've been using is a spine twist where my legs aren't really involved much and it's beating up my lower back because of this.

So I primarily do a stand still because I've heard that's the best way for a beginner to learn. Any tips on making sure your lower body is doing all the right things to get that power?

All about timing. Yeh that makes sense. I see small guys throw much farther than bigger, buffer guys all the time. This post is encouraging. I think I need to start at square one. Currently, with my throw Im pretty sure my hips/legs aren't driving the torso/shoulder rotation. It feels like I'm just twisting my spine to get back into the reachback which is leading to me topping out at 250' no matter how wide my reachback, or how long I'm able to grip that disc before it releases. I find it very awkward to get my feet/hips to rotate from the reachbacked position all the way to 10' o clock position and beyond.

The secret sauce to using legs does start with the backswing... make sure you're getting weight completely on the rear foot and braced against rear leg during the backswing... (forward swing mirrored) should feel everything load up if you don't let your foot spin out and you'll then be ready to unwind/use your legs.

See how SW shifts center of gravity toward rear leg in backswing in attached pic.

See SW22's Power of Posture video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs

^ how one would naturally throw a hammer or something heavy.

 

[deyo7]

I have completely given up on driving the elbow. I drive the extension from a bent arm. The elbow starts out been approximately 90 degrees or slightly less and then is fully uncocked at 10 o'clock and the chest is facing the 10 o'clock position arm straight out in front of you. This is what I call slapping the Midget. The back of your hand reaches 10 o'clock your arm is fully extended and your chest is exactly facing 10 o'clock in perfect sync with your arm. The more you practice this without a disc the more you will see that your chest catching up with your arm at the extension is a big part of the hit. Your legs move your butt and your butt moves your chest and your chest moves your arm and the elbow uncock moves your hand. It is a chain of unfolding levers that all unfold perfectly at the moment that that the disc ejects from your hand at full extension at 10 o'clock

I think it might be best for you to temporarily unlearn everything you ever learned and just work with trying to achieve this position and feel the full extension and the crazy level of acceleration that you can achieve to the point where your fingers will tingle if you do it fast and hard enough without a disk. All of the blood will go to your fingers because of the centrifical force reaches of Pinnacle at full extension as you snap your chest to ten o'clock and all of the levers lineup from the center of your rotation which is your neck through to your right hip joint.

By the way this is exactly what Besto called punching it out. But in his video he did not make a very good explanation of how he drives the punch with his lower body not with his arm but that's exactly what he was describing was the point where the elbow uncocks two full extension exactly the same way as if you were back hand punching somebody. But the backhand punch is to be driven from your feet upward not from your arm backward.

The other side effect that I noticed from punching outward into the full extension is that you will feel your body push backwards so that you will get behind the disc and hit from behind it in the same way that you see ball golfers fall slightly back as they extend the clubhead through the impact area. So that your head instead of passively sitting waiting for your arm to rotate around it as you extend your right arm you will feel your entire body get pushed back and you will feel if anything your spine was set in behind the hit this is completely normal and is what the brace really is. The brace is simply the counterbalance of the body as the disc shoot forward the body will momentarily feel like it's being pushed backwards. This is a good thing you should feel it if you extend violently you will feel your body brace rearward and you will stand on your left toe and Brace on your hip joint. When you short arm throw it's really more like you're just simply rotating over your hip joint where the extension throw feels like you brace against it

I like the simplicity of this: driving your arm toward full extension.

Bradley, you also talked about slapping the midget with your left ass check.

The midget is standing right there. He is laughing at you. Slap him. Slap him hard. With your left ass cheek.

Can you clarify?

 

[joecoin]

I like the simplicity of this: driving your arm toward full extension.

Bradley, you also talked about slapping the midget with your left ass check.



Can you clarify?

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Pics or it didn't happen.

It is very simple. You drive the backhanded right hand extension with your trailing leg. Not with your arm muscles. Your arm is soft like a whip, and you snap is straight at 10 o'clock with your hips (your left ass cheek contracting).

 

[deyo7]

OH OK. So you're saying use your ass, not slap the midget with your ass.

 

[slowplastic]

It is very simple. You drive the backhanded right hand extension with your trailing leg. Not with your arm muscles. Your arm is soft like a whip, and you snap is straight at 10 o'clock with your hips (your left ass cheek contracting).

As a counterweight/leverage/anchor feeling you're meaning?

 

[Bradley Walker]

As a counterweight/leverage/anchor feeling you're meaning?

To create a rotation around your right hip joint, your left side rotates around the right. This manifests itself as a rising up onto the left toe to rotate the left side around the right (and then following to the left foot coming off the ground or sometimes rotating in around the right leg in the bowling finish).

 

[joecoin]

OH OK. So you're saying use your ass, not slap the midget with your ass.

How very disappointing.

 

[Frisbee-Hanski]

Could we say that DG throw can be compared to a trebuchet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet). There was some years ago a thread of DG and trebuchet in DGCR. This question is something which I became interested in through my practice sessions. For example during the summer this year I had a good, effortless throw with my putter. I was wondering later, how I actually threw. I think I simply managed to use my butt as a counterweight. This is also an antidote against strong arming?

 

[Bradley Walker]

One thing that has been coming up is the concept of both shoulders tracking in time with the lead arm. Many form issues go away when the trailing shoulder keeps in time with the lead shoulder and both stay 90 degrees to the lead arm. Many power leaks come from the shoulders opening in relation to one another.

 

[Discusted]

One thing that has been coming up is the concept of both shoulders tracking in time with the lead arm. Many form issues go away when the trailing shoulder keeps in time with the lead shoulder and both stay 90 degrees to the lead arm. Many power leaks come from the shoulders opening in relation to one another.

Hmm I'm thinking about this some more and have some questions. So if the upper arm to body arm stays at around 90 throuhout. And at 10 o clock the arm is at full extension/ release, does this mean the Arc starts are the left pec and goes outward? I don't need see how the arc could start at the right pec with the shoulder closed. The act of having the shoulders closed puts the disc at the left pec when it you bring it close to your chest. Without driving the elbow forward/opening the shoulder how do you ever get that disc to the right pec area?

 

[slowplastic]

Hmm I'm thinking about this some more and have some questions. So if the upper arm to body arm stays at around 90 throuhout. And at 10 o clock the arm is at full extension/ release, does this mean the Arc starts are the left pec and goes outward? I don't need see how the arc could start at the right pec with the shoulder closed. The act of having the shoulders closed puts the disc at the left pec when it you bring it close to your chest. Without driving the elbow forward/opening the shoulder how do you ever get that disc to the right pec area?

Yeah I think it kind of is the left pec...but since feel perception/goals vs. actual results differs...

If you aim for left pec then lots of people will probably collapse the arm early and go to left upper arm. If you think right pec, and everything gets kind of collapsed slightly from the momentum you'll be at left pec. Everyone is a bit different with what the feel is perceived as and what clicks though.

Or you can just feel what that outer arc/hit point is, keep the angles maintained as much as possible during the backswing and forward swing, and then see on video after where it looked like the disc was near your chest. I think this is the best option.