Driving the elbow vs keeping the shoulder closed

[Discusted]

Yeah I think it kind of is the left pec...but since feel perception/goals vs. actual results differs...

If you aim for left pec then lots of people will probably collapse the arm early and go to left upper arm. If you think right pec, and everything gets kind of collapsed slightly from the momentum you'll be at left pec. Everyone is a bit different with what the feel is perceived as and what clicks though.

Or you can just feel what that outer arc/hit point is, keep the angles maintained as much as possible during the backswing and forward swing, and then see on video after where it looked like the disc was near your chest. I think this is the best option.

Good advice. Thanks, so shoulder closed is the goal, which means you probably pull in towards left pec, but depending on how you get there it could be at left arm, or left pec, or right pec, but I'll experiment with where I hope to pull in to see where it actually lands.

 

[slowplastic]

Good advice. Thanks, so shoulder closed is the goal, which means you probably pull in towards left pec, but depending on how you get there it could be at left arm, or left pec, or right pec, but I'll experiment with where I hope to pull in to see where it actually lands.

I'd say shoulder maintained is goal so you can get that outer arc in front of you without opening the shoulder or elbow early. Try the hammer swinging and "battering ram" swinging on SW's youtube channel, his drills are on seabas22 account. Once you feel that outer arc and how far in front of your body it is, it's more obvious to not allow yourself to collapse. Also the slower your movement forward the less the disc/hand gets pulled in to the chest. If you watch McBeth on easy upshots for example, his arm looks really wide, and on high power shots his hand gets way in to the power pocket and his elbow angle looks pretty sharp. I bet it feels the same to him, just the momentum pulling the disc/hand/forearm back is increased with more power and speed.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Lag. Lag bends the arm. The arm is not being bent.

 

[UhhNegative]

Good advice. Thanks, so shoulder closed is the goal, which means you probably pull in towards left pec, but depending on how you get there it could be at left arm, or left pec, or right pec, but I'll experiment with where I hope to pull in to see where it actually lands.

If you just let the arm/disc do its own thing, it will work out. There's no "pulling" involved really. What I mean is, treat the arm/disc as just a big, loose whip. The rotation of your hips/torso is all the power you need. Anything you "try" to do with the arm just gets in the way of the slinging motion.

 

[Bradley Walker]

If you just let the arm/disc do its own thing, it will work out. There's no "pulling" involved really. What I mean is, treat the arm/disc as just a big, loose whip. The rotation of your hips/torso is all the power you need. Anything you "try" to do with the arm just gets in the way of the slinging motion.

He got it.

And the day you realize the disc ejects straight out from the arm and not at right angles to it, is the day your form will start fixing itself.

 

[Discusted]

I'd say shoulder maintained is goal so you can get that outer arc in front of you without opening the shoulder or elbow early. Try the hammer swinging and "battering ram" swinging on SW's youtube channel, his drills are on seabas22 account. Once you feel that outer arc and how far in front of your body it is, it's more obvious to not allow yourself to collapse. Also the slower your movement forward the less the disc/hand gets pulled in to the chest. If you watch McBeth on easy upshots for example, his arm looks really wide, and on high power shots his hand gets way in to the power pocket and his elbow angle looks pretty sharp. I bet it feels the same to him, just the momentum pulling the disc/hand/forearm back is increased with more power and speed.

Ahh this falls in line with the whole dingle arm idea then. How I'm thinking about it is that the body turns with a locked shoulder, the elbow joint being dingly makes the reachback out and back into the power pocket just follow the motion of the rotating body, then as the body continues to rotate towards followthrough, the force of the rotation eventually snaps the arm extended to that 10' o clock position. One thing I've wondered about though is, when the lower arm starts to extend, at that point are we sposed to be using some sort of conscious motion of the arm, say extending the triceps muscles to add extra force or is the elbow joint STILL dingly at that point?

 

[Discusted]

If you just let the arm/disc do its own thing, it will work out. There's no "pulling" involved really. What I mean is, treat the arm/disc as just a big, loose whip. The rotation of your hips/torso is all the power you need. Anything you "try" to do with the arm just gets in the way of the slinging motion.

Thus makes sense. Just the motion of hip rotation with a singly arm seems to put the disc where it needs to be, from reachback, to follow through, to 10'o clock arm extension. A question that remains however, is there ANY point where you want to not be so singly and use your tricep muscles to extend the arm outward with conscious arm effort and force? Or is it even at the beginning of extension it should still be primarily hip rotation that gets it to whip out?

 

[slowplastic]

Ahh this falls in line with the whole dingle arm idea then. How I'm thinking about it is that the body turns with a locked shoulder, the elbow joint being dingly makes the reachback out and back into the power pocket just follow the motion of the rotating body, then as the body continues to rotate towards followthrough, the force of the rotation eventually snaps the arm extended to that 10' o clock position. One thing I've wondered about though is, when the lower arm starts to extend, at that point are we sposed to be using some sort of conscious motion of the arm, say extending the triceps muscles to add extra force or is the elbow joint STILL dingly at that point?

I definitely swing the arm, and you have to at some point so you don't hyper extend the elbow with it snapping open/extended. I'm feeling less and less shoulder socket use though. Before I could really feel my shoulder move my arm, and now it feels like it's my core/chest swinging or extending it. Just don't isolate your arm from your body by moving it independently, and probably start the swing later than you think.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ahh this falls in line with the whole dingle arm idea then. How I'm thinking about it is that the body turns with a locked shoulder, the elbow joint being dingly makes the reachback out and back into the power pocket just follow the motion of the rotating body, then as the body continues to rotate towards followthrough, the force of the rotation eventually snaps the arm extended to that 10' o clock position. One thing I've wondered about though is, when the lower arm starts to extend, at that point are we sposed to be using some sort of conscious motion of the arm, say extending the triceps muscles to add extra force or is the elbow joint STILL dingly at that point?

I wouldn't say the shoulder is locked, it will lag and move fluidly, you just need to prevent it collapsing to where you lose tautness of the weight of the disc.

I would say it's subconsciously adding to the elbow/arm extension just like using a hammer. You shouldn't be forcing anything and it's not just the tricep, but a group of muscles working through whole the body reciprocally, some muscles turn on and other muscles turn off.

IMO this is the best way to describe it:

 

[drk_evns]

I wouldn't say the shoulder is locked, it will lag and move fluidly, you just need to prevent it collapsing to where you lose tautness of the weight of the disc.

I would say it's subconsciously adding to the elbow/arm extension just like using a hammer. You shouldn't be forcing anything and it's not just the tricep, but a group of muscles working through whole the body reciprocally, some muscles turn on and other muscles turn off.

IMO this is the best way to describe it:

Yep. I just try to keep my shoulder set the entire time, but it naturally closes to somewhere around 90 automatically. I think of it as static, and I'm just pulling in and releasing my elbow joint. It really helps with taking focus off of throwing with your arm, and is a huge breakthrough that you really have to get in order to start throwing 450+.

 

[Bradley Walker]

No one on tour swings like Shawn Clemente... Although I can see the usefulness of talking about the way he uses his lead hip. Since he essentially uses his lead hip for the entire swing. Which no one does. Not in ball golf anyway.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Not really good at all.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not really good at all.

Like Nicklaus:

 

[Bradley Walker]

Like Nicklaus:

The fact that you think those are the same position shows that using a bunch of stop action pictures to establish movement has some real pitfalls. They are not the same position.

I will take a picture from my Ledbetter book and show you what Clemente is doing is actually what Ledbetter calls a "lower spine reverse pivot". And to compare what Clemente does to Jack Nicklaus is RIDICULOUS!!!

 

[Bradley Walker]

You can already see how Clemente is already TWISTED in his lower body, and his right hip is collapsing behind him forcing his right hip to collapse inwardly to the left. There is NO WEIGHT SHIFT. He is essentially rotating around his left hip joint.

Jack has a MASSIVE weight shift to the OUTSIDE of his right hip. And he shifted to his right side to the point he could stand on one leg at the top of his swing, then then the weight fell onto the lead hip coming down.

Not the same. Not even a little bit. Please stop saying they are the same.

This is the same mistake you made in saying that Clemente is like Hogan too. You are taking the transition or the "kick" frame and comparing them without any lead up to how they got there. Clemente doesn't have a KICK!!! He twists up into the kick position and skips the hip shift altogether.

 

[sidewinder22]

You can not "reverse pivot" in the backswing when you are in dynamic balance. In your pic above you can see SC's front knee is already kicked inward, all his weight is dynamically balanced on the rear leg. Nicklaus starts the backswing with a lateral sway, which is unnecessary and his front knee hasn't kicked inward yet. They both get in the same transition position although they start in a slightly different position.

 

[drk_evns]

You can not "reverse pivot" in the backswing when you are in dynamic balance. In your pic above you can see SC's front knee is already kicked inward, all his weight is dynamically balanced on the rear leg. Nicklaus starts the backswing with a lateral sway, which is unnecessary and his front knee hasn't kicked inward yet. They both get in the same transition position although they start in a slightly different position.

I always get something great out of every SC video you post.

 

[RFrance]

I always get something great out of every SC video you post.

I'll second that! :thmbup:

 

[Bradley Walker]

You can not "reverse pivot" in the backswing when you are in dynamic balance.

I didn't say "reverse pivot" (as in the swing-which is the most misunderstood teaching point in golf). It is lower spine reverse pivot. They are two different things.

So much bad golf instruction on the Internet. I was going to write a long response with ten pictures to show you, but I decided there is no way you could tell the difference. So, I will just not waste my time. It is a disc golf forum. With people discussing ball golf that don't even play. Complete waste of time.

Turning into the rear hip is obvious.

 

[drk_evns]

I didn't say "reverse pivot" (as in the swing-which is the most misunderstood teaching point in golf). It is lower spine reverse pivot. They are two different things.

So much bad golf instruction on the Internet. I was going to write a long response with ten pictures to show you, but I decided there is no way you could tell the difference. So, I will just not waste my time. It is a disc golf forum. With people discussing ball golf that don't even play. Complete waste of time.

Turning into the rear hip is obvious.

Bradley, I really like hearing your insights into the game, but jesus you bristle up so quickly.

I learned the entire backhand form on the internet without anyone in person to teach me, so your idea that you can't possibly describe something to us using this medium is lame.

Whether or not Shawn Clemente is a great golf instructor or not I don't know, but every time I watch/listen I find at least something beneficial to my form. Of course everything won't translate, but the fact that SW22 has found so many connecting points within these videos has really helped my understanding. It's so much better than some pro clinic on youtube that's saying the same **** all the time.