First form check!

[Brychanus]

I'm not quick twitch, I'll tell you that much. lol

I'm 5'10 (generously, though a home life insurance physical right after I rolled out of bed one time measured me at 5'11 even lol) / 165 with a 6'3 wingspan. I've never been very naturally coordinated - just a reps-on-reps person. But even then - only *some* things really ever *clicked* without clear *deep* instruction. I got good hands on instruction with disc golf, not so much with some other things (I started running distance at age 5, but had to rebuild my form around age 27-29, because the YouTube era gave me a ton of info I never got, I ran pretty good placements in a weak D3 college conference with absolute shit form).

Nick mentioned Marty Peters above (aka Scott Stokely's skateboarding buddy, a giant with long arms) - he was also crucial for me, especially with getting my feet in position with the cross step, though I used a lot of resources. DGR having slow motion RealVideo format videos of top pros throwing in slow motion was super beneficial when I started, the grip page on DGR was super beneficial too.

Anyway... You talked about athletic decline and said Weissman apparently talks about it - so I am curious about that. My personal experience has been that my own failings in terms of technique, in terms of lack of coordination, has led to maintaining a lot of physical 'performances' as I've got older, by virtue of slowly figuring things out and compensating for age. Its been a real slow build because I just don't have a real strong natural mind-body connection.

One thing is for sure - the YouTube era has been a big benefit for me as I've got older.

Interesting - so you're very positive ape index, but don't really identify as quick twitch or coordinated. I wouldn't be surprised if hands on instruction from good people has a large effect when applied well. You also seem to have a passion and work ethic.

I think Weissman had replied to you here where he's talking about declines and compensation with age:

The Method Docuseries is Live!

Haha, understood Chris! I am who I am, and I know that can sometimes be a bit much for people. It's the same way in person, and always has been. Basically, the urge to story tell is overwhelming, at all times. It's a constant torrent I have to temper through willpower and discipline. A bit...

www.dgcoursereview.com

YouTube era spoils us for sure, and I'm very grateful I am "growing up" in it.

I will also add...

Yeah, putting the work in can't be replaced. Finding the sweet spot can apparently take a while/change with age and circumstance.

Kuoksa & injury: I can't say everything since some of it was in confidence, but I'm sure it will get increasingly public eventually - basically, the way Kuoksa moves is deceptively athletic (there are data on this and the guy is pretty impressive at face value in the gym). Young people are seeing his very extremely horizontally braced move (which we could suspect puts a much bigger draw on weaker muscles to stay dynamically stable and balanced). They try to copy it and focus on the "stop" of the brace, but their posture and balance suck and their bodies aren't in the condition to take the forces. They end up jamming ground forces into their leading hip and pelvis and create impact or repetitive fractures in the pelvis and lower spine. If it sounds pretty bad to you, that's because it is. Yikes.

Kuoksa/Jaani: I do not mind public critiques but I also believe in things like being cordial and discussing things in good faith. I'm increasingly becoming more careful as the space gets more crowded and is full of big personalities. I just care about the mechanics.

Peters/giant hyzerbombs/arm slots etc: honestly all sounds very similar to how Sidewinder tends to teach the shift mechanics and posture, or how Gibson is exaggerating "swinging upwards nose down" here. I personally find spike hyzers a lot of fun and usually can throw them farther than most amateurs I encounter even if they have good distance. Probably related.

Arm "can't help it" - yes, I think that's there. One of the main ideas in Sidewinder's door frame drill. The thing just kind of "happens" once you foot starts to plant/resist the ground and carry through.

OAT/body English/ Peters "old school" tricks: I think I understand what you're saying there better than I did a few months ago (doing it reliably is another matter lmao). Comets are super sensitive to all that too I'm now finding with more options for body control. What most instruction in DG lacks IMHO is that the arm is rotating like a corkscrew the whole way through the move. People try to break it into these little parts but that's kind of not how arms work in most actions. You can change the details but how it winds up and unwinds as a "unit" apparently matters a lot. Gotta be careful with that at first if you're not used to it.

Basketball/body intuition - yes, I can think of one visible example of bballer who got the weight shift wrong, but the basic idea there is very clear. Watch Gibson's two handed motion in the second gif above. Looks like a medicine ball or basketball toss, don't it?
Claws or suctions - I like that.
I think I get the fascial/stretching concept implicitly now and I can clearly "feel" when I'm recruiting more "X-factor" vs. not. It is definitely something I wasn't doing before I learned from Sidewinder here, and is definitely something that has to happen across the whole body to throw well. Also the area of the most body adaptation I still need, probably. So hopefully spacing out my throwing again will allow better recovery cycles (and resisting the temptation of "pushing through" with ibuprofen or ice baths).

Something I forgot to mention, just popped into my head as I'm warming & stretching at the field right now...

Yes, I think finding little "hangers" for what things trigger good motions and memories are really important. The utility of standstills is very clear, though I do think transforming it into a move while feet are moving (x-step) adds novel challenges. I still have never regretted time on my standstills which is why I always am throwing some, and I'm always still noticing new things.

"It's all just a fancy walk at the end of the day." Yep. A challenging walk indeed, but a walk of some kind.

X-step/shuffle hop: I've gradually paid more attention to this. E.g., in Mcbeth, he tends to use more of a side shuffle hop on throws less than full power often (i.e., not just a shorter x-step, but an actual shuffle hop). I have physical issues in my rear leg that probably contributes for reasons I'll spare you, but I noticed that when I'm downtempoing now, my body naturally wants to do more of a side shuffle hop while learning the "criss cross x-step" sidewinder is getting me to do. The CoM ideally moves the "same" way in the side shuffle pattern, but the overall move is smaller and I can get vaguely different balance points in the side shuffle hop than a true X-step and control my pump in different ways. Then when I'm trying to throw for power I've got both more hop and more cross and more/full pump. SO over time I'm realizing for power drives, I have one "idealized" move I am trying to do over and over always trying to get longer and bigger. But since golf is a lot more variable, letting it naturally develop into "body English" has already been helping. I do wonder if on full power how much of it is flexibility and mobility and if one is a little harder on certain parts of the bodies than others. But I guess we now have X-stepping and shuffle hopping world champions, don't we? Interesting.

All i know is - i had to order a Comet. I expect fireworks and aces every time i throw.. lol

I am going to caution you to watch this classic video first if you haven't seen it/forgot it. Notice McBeth does not appear to throw Comets often (that I can recall) after that lmao. I remember at one point Michael Johansen was asked about grip and I think was referring to McBeth when he said something like "Comets behave very well when you don't grip the snot out of them" or something. I'm not criticizing the peak 1060 6x World Champion, just saying it's understandable if they're not quite everyone's jam out of the box lmao. Paul also tends to like to throw a lot of his control shots close to true flat and adapted his competition form to that, whereas I tend to like to throw everything more hyzer like Gibson whenever I can and especially when putting some gas on a Comet. Apparently they can also coast on nasty distance shallow anhyzers but you need very good control over them to get the effect, which I'm starting to work on.


Timestamp (4:53 and then 8:58). Paul describes the Comet as "a little touchy right now for me."






Then just last year he threw one again talking about whether he had learned to throw it (2:43), looked nice, but he said he felt like everything he tried overlapped with things he already has:

 

[ChrisWoj]

Interesting - so you're very positive ape index, but don't really identify as quick twitch or coordinated. I wouldn't be surprised if hands on instruction from good people has a large effect when applied well. You also seem to have a passion and work ethic.

I think Weissman had replied to you here where he's talking about declines and compensation with age:

The Method Docuseries is Live!

Haha, understood Chris! I am who I am, and I know that can sometimes be a bit much for people. It's the same way in person, and always has been. Basically, the urge to story tell is overwhelming, at all times. It's a constant torrent I have to temper through willpower and discipline. A bit...

www.dgcoursereview.com

YouTube era spoils us for sure, and I'm very grateful I am "growing up" in it.

Yeah. I saw that, I'll check out those videos tonight probably.

One thing he noted in his responses to others over in that thread, that I found interesting and think may apply to my context as a golfer: he puts a lot of emphasis on the idea of a dominant hand/side. I grew up ambidextrous, due to spending the age of 2 to 3 pretty much with a cast on my dominant arm. So learning little stuff like throwing a normal ball, or holding a pencil, or eating all happened lefty for me. I am right hand dominant, though, so once the cast was removed I picked up other skills right my right hand.

If being ambidextrous is any sort of advantage in learning to throw a disc - I, for example, grew up pitching and playing the outfield and first base left handed, but because of the ease of throwing across the diamond I played 2nd/3rd/short right handed. I would also pitch right handed occasionally. But since I didn't learn to throw a football until I was much older, I only ever threw a football right handed.

So that might have really helped cut into my learning curve? I hadn't really thought about it until reading his posts in the other thread.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah. I saw that, I'll check out those videos tonight probably.

One thing he noted in his responses to others over in that thread, that I found interesting and think may apply to my context as a golfer: he puts a lot of emphasis on the idea of a dominant hand/side. I grew up ambidextrous, due to spending the age of 2 to 3 pretty much with a cast on my dominant arm. So learning little stuff like throwing a normal ball, or holding a pencil, or eating all happened lefty for me. I am right hand dominant, though, so once the cast was removed I picked up other skills right my right hand.

If being ambidextrous is any sort of advantage in learning to throw a disc - I, for example, grew up pitching and playing the outfield and first base left handed, but because of the ease of throwing across the diamond I played 2nd/3rd/short right handed. I would also pitch right handed occasionally. But since I didn't learn to throw a football until I was much older, I only ever threw a football right handed.

So that might have really helped cut into my learning curve? I hadn't really thought about it until reading his posts in the other thread.

Yeah, I believe in dominance issues, and crossed relationships. E.g., I'm usually right eye dominant but for whatever reason my dominance drifted to my left eye when throwing backhand, which contributes to my head rushing ahead somewhat.

I also found a lot of kinetic connections to boxing, but I'm used to throwing heavy crosses and uppercuts right-handed and left-footed planting. Incidentally I think that helped me figure out my overhand throws once I swung a lot of clubs in the Fall with the same right-handed-left-footed sequence, but converting it to forehand is tougher for me.

Oddly, I did used to use a right-handed spinning backfist off the right plant foot to good effect (like Sidewinder's Shaolin Lumberjack), which is more like a disc golf RHBH, but I couldn't really connect it to the backhand. I suspect part of it was I found the grip on discs and "hit point" so weird, but that's gotten significantly better now. I might try throwing standstills like a spinning backfist if I remember to in the field next time, I'm curious what will happen now.

 

[Kennets]

@Brychanus

Disc review incoming!

Ive played a few rounds with the Comet in the bag and let me tell you this..

Its a love/hate relationship already. My god it feels awful in the hand. If i thought my Roc felt off, a Comet is like if a Roc and that driver from innova had a baby. It kinda feels like a beach frisbee and im surprised its throwable..

But even though it feels like something straight outta disc golf hell, it flies AMAZING! If thrown with some zip behind it, I get a nice straight flip up hyzer, with a gentle fade in the end. Really a useful tool in those narrow fairways!

Not sure if I'm gonna keep it in the bag, time will tell!

Sorry for the offtopic comment

 

[Skamanda]

@Brychanus

Disc review incoming!

Ive played a few rounds with the Comet in the bag and let me tell you this..

Its a love/hate relationship already. My god it feels awful in the hand. If i thought my Roc felt off, a Comet is like if a Roc and that driver from innova had a baby. It kinda feels like a beach frisbee and im surprised its throwable..

But even though it feels like something straight outta disc golf hell, it flies AMAZING! If thrown with some zip behind it, I get a nice straight flip up hyzer, with a gentle fade in the end. Really a useful tool in those narrow fairways!

Not sure if I'm gonna keep it in the bag, time will tell!

Sorry for the offtopic comment

Do you power grip it, or fan grip it? The Comet feels weirdest with a power grip. Bonus of some variation on a fan grip is you get more stability on the angle on it, which opens up a lot more shots to you!

 

[Kennets]

Do you power grip it, or fan grip it? The Comet feels weirdest with a power grip. Bonus of some variation on a fan grip is you get more stability on the angle on it, which opens up a lot more shots to you!

I usually throw with a modified fan grip (ish), i rarely power grip, unless im throwing a driver with a wide rim. Tbh, I haven't found a grip that feels great in the hand, lol.

It's a great disc though, that can be manipulated into different flight, just gotta get used to the feel. It's great for a loooong turnover flick FH.

 

[Brychanus]

@Brychanus

Disc review incoming!

Ive played a few rounds with the Comet in the bag and let me tell you this..

Its a love/hate relationship already. My god it feels awful in the hand. If i thought my Roc felt off, a Comet is like if a Roc and that driver from innova had a baby. It kinda feels like a beach frisbee and im surprised its throwable..

But even though it feels like something straight outta disc golf hell, it flies AMAZING! If thrown with some zip behind it, I get a nice straight flip up hyzer, with a gentle fade in the end. Really a useful tool in those narrow fairways!

Not sure if I'm gonna keep it in the bag, time will tell!

Sorry for the offtopic comment

Do you power grip it, or fan grip it? The Comet feels weirdest with a power grip. Bonus of some variation on a fan grip is you get more stability on the angle on it, which opens up a lot more shots to you!

I think maybe it feels natural in my hand due to its shape fitting well into my meatpaws, throwing and swinging hammers which are kind of round like the nose of a Comet, lots of field reps, and definitely grip has something to do with it.

I use a version of the Climo fork grip most of the time for Comets and otherwise, but that definitely took some getting used to at first. I like how I can get pretty good leverage on it when powering up and still decent flight plate control. I never used a true fan grip before but just started tinkering with that for the touchier shorter shots. I don't like to power grip Comets either, it just doesn't quite ever feel like I can get it to leverage the way I want it to.

I also practiced drives with an Ultrastar before my current form work so compared to that the Comet feels like a distance driver lmao.

I don't know why but I had more "love" than "hate" early on for Comets and the love only becomes stronger with practice. I guess the only thing I miss about my Buzzz is the reliably stable/slightly OS end of flight that I sometimes find in Comets, but then again if I throw a Comet well I can still get a hyzer shot to do most of the same work. Right now I bag 4 comets in different stabilities then just jump right up from my most stable Comet to my Gator for truly OS shots and that's working out ok. Also something weird/new is definitely happening in my swing because I'm getting new effects in the turning/spin phase I didn't used to and it's changing the possible shot shapes. I haven't measured it but I think there's a little more speed+spin than I had before I started grinding the most recent form changes. Also a little more control over what my wrist and grip are doing in general, I think. Iiiiiinteresting.

I've also gradually been throwing short range flicks with it during rounds which has been pretty cool and is helping me smooth a few things out quickly.

 

[Brychanus]

I usually throw with a modified fan grip (ish), i rarely power grip, unless im throwing a driver with a wide rim. Tbh, I haven't found a grip that feels great in the hand, lol.

It's a great disc though, that can be manipulated into different flight, just gotta get used to the feel. It's great for a loooong turnover flick FH.

I still find it interesting that grip (along with everything else) can "drift" shot to shot. In the field I'll get in a rhythm and have a streak of really good ones, then a few duds.

In a round I'll often find the same - several shots in a row really syncing up, then a few duds. So right now I'm mostly trying to focus on making the duds less likely while working on the form tweaks. Throwing more on true anhyzer whenever it makes sense seems to be helping me get more control over things overall but it's taking time.

 

[Skamanda]

I use a version of the Climo fork grip most of the time for Comets and otherwise, but that definitely took some getting used to at first. I like how I can get pretty good leverage on it when powering up and still decent flight plate control. I never used a true fan grip before but just started tinkering with that for the touchier shorter shots. I don't like to power grip Comets either, it just doesn't quite ever feel like I can get it to leverage the way I want it to.

Would you happen to have a link to the old YouTube video of that grip? That's the one I use for my drivers, and I keep trying to explain it to people - but without the video handy it's difficult to explain if they're not in front of me, and I can't seem to find it.

My Comet grip is something of a hybrid between that and a fan - the base hand shape is from that grip, but I vary the pinky pressure, and whether the ring finger is stacked on it depending on the needs of the shot, and rather than using the index finger as the pivot point, it's loose on the rim like a putter, and the actual pivot point instead is the big knuckle on my middle finger (I pinch the disc between that and my thumb at the hit).

By varying my finger and wrist positions, I can achieve just about any nose angle without much adjustment, and then I just vary the pull, depending on whether I need a flat/hyzer shot, or an anhyzer.

 

[Brychanus]

Would you happen to have a link to the old YouTube video of that grip? That's the one I use for my drivers, and I keep trying to explain it to people - but without the video handy it's difficult to explain if they're not in front of me, and I can't seem to find it.

My Comet grip is something of a hybrid between that and a fan - the base hand shape is from that grip, but I vary the pinky pressure, and whether the ring finger is stacked on it depending on the needs of the shot, and rather than using the index finger as the pivot point, it's loose on the rim like a putter, and the actual pivot point instead is the big knuckle on my middle finger (I pinch the disc between that and my thumb at the hit).

By varying my finger and wrist positions, I can achieve just about any nose angle without much adjustment, and then I just vary the pull, depending on whether I need a flat/hyzer shot, or an anhyzer.

This gave me a fun assignment - I'm not sure if this is the one you were thinking of but might be it, I forgot how good it is (or more likely didn't physically understand it well enough at the time):



What's interesting to me is Climo is defining it as a "fork" grip because of its function and not just where the fingers etc. are. He understood how grips worked in a lot of contexts to deliver control and power. I loved his tendon discussion in that video.

My grip is similar to what they're showing between 1:22 and 1:40 with ring finger slightly stacked over pinky and middle stacked slightly over ring, just adjusted for my relatively short fingers. When I'm throwing my best it does feel very similar to working a literal fork, or writing with a pen, or turning a screwdriver, or swinging a hammer.

@Skamanda appreciate what you're saying about the grip variations there. I haven't tried messing with the pivot point other than changes in emphasis on the index finger. Can you say more about the pinky pressure changes? I wasn't feeling confident to mess with it but more recently I have more grip "fluency" so I like learning about these things. Basically I'm trying to learn what I can do with Comets especially in upshot range and it seems like there's a lot of versatility I could learn.

I was also playing with one of the group vets the past couple weekends and he was sharing some wrist action tips for anhyzer upshots that I immediately recognized as what Sidewinder likes to teach as "windmilling" action or part of some of the Ekstrom tips (which also involve posture control) - I have always struggled with it for drives but was finding I could do it for upshot distances somewhat better than before on anhyzer, which was neat. My rollers usually suck but the only two times I've reached a real ~500' on flat ground in no wind in an open field were accidental power backhand rollers doing something like that (which was shocking at the time), so I'm playing with that a little more again.

 

[Skamanda]

This gave me a fun assignment - I'm not sure if this is the one you were thinking of but might be it, I forgot how good it is (or more likely didn't physically understand it well enough at the time):



What's interesting to me is Climo is defining it as a "fork" grip because of its function and not just where the fingers etc. are. He understood how grips worked in a lot of contexts to deliver control and power. I loved his tendon discussion in that video.

My grip is similar to what they're showing between 1:22 and 1:40 with ring finger slightly stacked over pinky and middle stacked slightly over ring, just adjusted for my relatively short fingers. When I'm throwing my best it does feel very similar to working a literal fork, or writing with a pen, or turning a screwdriver, or swinging a hammer.

@Skamanda appreciate what you're saying about the grip variations there. I haven't tried messing with the pivot point other than changes in emphasis on the index finger. Can you say more about the pinky pressure changes? I wasn't feeling confident to mess with it but more recently I have more grip "fluency" so I like learning about these things. Basically I'm trying to learn what I can do with Comets especially in upshot range and it seems like there's a lot of versatility I could learn.

I was also playing with one of the group vets the past couple weekends and he was sharing some wrist action tips for anhyzer upshots that I immediately recognized as what Sidewinder likes to teach as "windmilling" action or part of some of the Ekstrom tips (which also involve posture control) - I have always struggled with it for drives but was finding I could do it for upshot distances somewhat better than before on anhyzer, which was neat. My rollers usually suck but the only two times I've reached a real ~500' on flat ground in no wind in an open field were accidental power backhand rollers doing something like that (which was shocking at the time), so I'm playing with that a little more again.

Yes! That's the video, thanks! I haven't seen that since the DGR days...

So the pinky pressure thing - I honestly do it more with putters than Comets, because usually if I throw a Comet I'm putting it downrange pretty far. Think of how with a fan grip, your pinky is pressed into the rim of the disc. When you're throwing a fan grip for power, you're pressing it in pretty firmly. When I want to vary the power, or force a different angle, I'll either move the ring finger closer to (for more power) or further away (for less). When I really want to get on it I'll leave the index and middle in my fan grip, but stack the ring and pinky like in the Climo video above. When I want to be very gentle, I'll even back the pinky off the rim as well (mostly just for upshots, or shots I want to fly like I deliberately underthrew it). When you get used to those adjustments, you can also vary the ring and index finger positions, as well as the thumb, to adjust the angle of the disc in your grip, and the amount of spin on it. That's how I get different shot shapes at different distances with the Comet.

Take these shots for example - they're all with domey 168g Comets, and I'm just varying the pinky and thumb placement for the most part.

This standstill, I'm barely holding the pinky on the rim, and the ring finger is loose. You can see the thumb is basically on the stripe of the stamp. The shot goes straight, then turns, and stays turned. Nose angle is fairly neutral.


This is the same disc, and roughly the same thumb placement (a bit more towards the center of the disc, which contributes to the nose angle), with a run up and my pinky and ring finger tighter in. Nose angle is more up. The shot shape is pretty similar, I'm just throwing it for distance because I'm at the Toboggan.


Same disc, with a run up and thumb inward of the stripe for nose up, but the pinky loose so when it turns, it doesn't turn all the way over.


Different plastic, same era and weight of Comet. Thumb is inboard of the stripe for mega nose up, pinky is in tight because I want the spin to flip it hard, for a long pushing hyzer.


Same disc as the pushing hyzer, same pinky pressure because it's a long shot and I want the power, but the thumb is way out towards the edge, to force the nose down a bit. It's on an anhyzer angle, but without the spin and nose angle this same disc fades out as it gets out of sight behind the initial trees. Instead, this carried all the way to the right and landed a couple feet from C1.
Amanda Branch on Instagram: "This is my favorite hole on this course, and this is EXACTLY why. The #discraftcomet makes this shot look eeeeasy #discgolf #discgolfgirls #discgolfwomen #transdiscgolfer #transathlete #transwomenbelonginsport #transathletesbelonginsport #throwproud"

 

[Skamanda]

Apparently the forum limits posts to 5 pieces of "Media", which is why that last one is just a link - but it's an Instagram reel, and it's probably the most fun shot of the group!

Edit: here it is-

 

[Kennets]

I still find it interesting that grip (along with everything else) can "drift" shot to shot. In the field I'll get in a rhythm and have a streak of really good ones, then a few duds.

In a round I'll often find the same - several shots in a row really syncing up, then a few duds. So right now I'm mostly trying to focus on making the duds less likely while working on the form tweaks. Throwing more on true anhyzer whenever it makes sense seems to be helping me get more control over things overall but it's taking time.

The Comet actually fits my hand better, I had to switch around with my grip a lot to find one that I found suitable. I can't even remember which one that is right now lol.

I can understand why you people like it, it seems like it can glide forever, when thrown correct. It's a little more sensitive to nose angle conpares. To my Roc, but I'll keep it in the bag!