Flatpad teepads

[Flatpad]

Flatpad can be installed either temporary or permanently. When we have design it to the standards, it mean's that it's safe.

 

[BillFleming]

I love the part of their chart where they show Ease of Installment. For everything BUT theirs it says:

It requires earthworks, building a frame, a number of tools and machines. A lot of know how too.

Not sure what is meant by earthworks.
Building a frame...sure, but that is something anyone can do. Doesn't require a lot of know how.
Number of tools. Okay, one tool is a number of them. Wooden teepad....screwdriver and level. Shovel and rake to move/level gravel. Concrete, container to mix it in....shovel and trowel.
Machines. Okay, a cordless drill/screwdriver is a machine.
Lots of know how...nope. I know of courses where concrete tee pads were put in by volunteers who had little to no experience.

I can read a bag of cement to learn how to make concrete. I'd bet it would take me more time/directions to put together your tee pad.

Anyways....I do wish you the best. I just don't see that it would be feasible in the U.S. Permanent tee pads could be put in for a lot less, and so could temporary tee pads. For the Pro Tour, it would be too expensive to have to have enough to move from one location to another.

 

[jakebake91]

Another note:

Just because something comes with a warranty and instructions in no way makes it "safe."

Something else:

You say "depends on builder" for a lot of the options. Doesn't the proper installation of your product matter also? Anything is shoddy when it's done shoddy. Regardless of the product or process.

More:
In what ways is a flatpad more adjustable than a wooden platform with turf? We might be thinking about different things here though. I'm picturing the wooden rectangles covered in turf if seen used at a bunch of temp courses as removable tee options.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Comparison table of different solutions. What do you think about this, is it correctly presenting the differencies?

While I was generally satisfied with your earlier responses to everything, although I think you are basically in denial about the safety issues (but they are obvious to those who might chose your tee pads), your chart is at the very least misleading and, at worst, misrepresentative.

You are trying to minimize your cons and your competitors pros and it shows.

Size - You have disrete sizes. The size choices for all your competitors are infinite. They all have an advantage over you here.

Flatness - Concrete is generally flat. All but the most clueless people are going to end up with a flat surface. I've never played on concrete surfaces that were irregular enough to affect my run up, and I am very sensitive to unflat tee pads which is why I hate turf. Additionally, concrete can be textured.

Portability - Concrete pads can be portable. Sure, it takes heavy equipment and the pads are more expensive, but movable pads can be had for less than half the price of your product and can be moved without any disassembly and reassembly. The last course I designed has movable concrete pads that were delivered and placed by the manufacturer. Some of the pads have been moved since to adjust the holes. Wood pads can be made modular, just like yours or be made to be movable as a whole.

Water Management - Pervious concrete is a thing. And while it may be more expensive than typical concrete, it should still be nearly an order of magnitude less expensive than your product.

Ventilation - I've never heard anyone complain about the lack of ventilation of a tee pad. Indeed, if the tee pad is impermiable, why would ventilation be an issue? This seems like a made-up criteria to suit your product for a problem (the collection of water underneath the tee box) caused by your product.

Safety - This is kind of laughable. As one image you posted shows, at least one "builder" felt the need to build up the ground in front of one of your pads to eliminate the drop down. And "Instructions"? Really? Do you expect every player to read the instruction manual to your pads before playing? I'm also curious to see what "standards" you are referring to. Please post them.

Ease of Acquisition - I could have any reasonable quantity of concrete delivered tomorrow to anywhere I need it in my local area. I could buy the wood framing, sand, hardware and outdoor turf to make wood frame tee pads today.

Installation Speed - Considering the cost difference between the various pad types and the resultant freedom of wood framing and concrete tee pads to utilize additional labor while still staying well below the cost of your product, I could easily afford to have 18 tee pads built/poured over the course of two days and possibly one in my area where we have mostly flat ground.

Total Price - Another laughable category and comparison. The total cost of a movable, 5x12 concrete tee pad in my area, even if I have to rent equipment to place it, would be less than half the cost of your tee pads and take less time to install. The cost of a similarly-sized, poured tee pad, even with labor would be less than $350 each (materials cost would be at or below $150 per pad). Sizing up the pad adds minimal additional cost and I can change the shape of a poured pad (circle, trapezoid, etc.).

I hope you find a suitable market for your product and that you have success, but you are not going to fool people with a comparison chart like this one. You would be much better simply pointing out the modularity, benefits of steel over other materials, advertising potential and showing that it only takes a bit of earthwork at the front of the tee box to address the safety issues.

Another thing you might want to do is manufacture some adjustable ramps to eliminate the drop off at the front of the tee, maybe a simple hinged steel panel or group of panels that can be fastened/attached to the front tee pad module.

 

[glassila]

Another note:

Advertising - in my area any advertising along the edges of the flatpad would quickly get hidden by grass growing up along the sides.
Also, while other tee areas don't have advertising on the tee pad itself they still have ads/sponsors on the tee signs.

 

[Flatpad]

While I was generally satisfied with your earlier responses to everything, although I think you are basically in denial about the safety issues (but they are obvious to those who might chose your tee pads), your chart is at the very least misleading and, at worst, misrepresentative.

You are trying to minimize your cons and your competitors pros and it shows.

Size - You have disrete sizes. The size choices for all your competitors are infinite. They all have an advantage over you here.

Flatness - Concrete is generally flat. All but the most clueless people are going to end up with a flat surface. I've never played on concrete surfaces that were irregular enough to affect my run up, and I am very sensitive to unflat tee pads which is why I hate turf. Additionally, concrete can be textured.

Portability - Concrete pads can be portable. Sure, it takes heavy equipment and the pads are more expensive, but movable pads can be had for less than half the price of your product and can be moved without any disassembly and reassembly. The last course I designed has movable concrete pads that were delivered and placed by the manufacturer. Some of the pads have been moved since to adjust the holes. Wood pads can be made modular, just like yours or be made to be movable as a whole.

Water Management - Pervious concrete is a thing. And while it may be more expensive than typical concrete, it should still be nearly an order of magnitude less expensive than your product.

Ventilation - I've never heard anyone complain about the lack of ventilation of a tee pad. Indeed, if the tee pad is impermiable, why would ventilation be an issue? This seems like a made-up criteria to suit your product for a problem (the collection of water underneath the tee box) caused by your product.

Safety - This is kind of laughable. As one image you posted shows, at least one "builder" felt the need to build up the ground in front of one of your pads to eliminate the drop down. And "Instructions"? Really? Do you expect every player to read the instruction manual to your pads before playing? I'm also curious to see what "standards" you are referring to. Please post them.

Ease of Acquisition - I could have any reasonable quantity of concrete delivered tomorrow to anywhere I need it in my local area. I could buy the wood framing, sand, hardware and outdoor turf to make wood frame tee pads today.

Installation Speed - Considering the cost difference between the various pad types and the resultant freedom of wood framing and concrete tee pads to utilize additional labor while still staying well below the cost of your product, I could easily afford to have 18 tee pads built/poured over the course of two days and possibly one in my area where we have mostly flat ground.

Total Price - Another laughable category and comparison. The total cost of a movable, 5x12 concrete tee pad in my area, even if I have to rent equipment to place it, would be less than half the cost of your tee pads and take less time to install. The cost of a similarly-sized, poured tee pad, even with labor would be less than $350 each (materials cost would be at or below $150 per pad). Sizing up the pad adds minimal additional cost and I can change the shape of a poured pad (circle, trapezoid, etc.).

I hope you find a suitable market for your product and that you have success, but you are not going to fool people with a comparison chart like this one. You would be much better simply pointing out the modularity, benefits of steel over other materials, advertising potential and showing that it only takes a bit of earthwork at the front of the tee box to address the safety issues.

Another thing you might want to do is manufacture some adjustable ramps to eliminate the drop off at the front of the tee, maybe a simple hinged steel panel or group of panels that can be fastened/attached to the front tee pad module.

Thank you very much for the answer and the insight. I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

Size,
Yes, we have a selection of them. For other solutions, it is purely defined and designed. However, infinite is not really an option.

Flatness,
Seems like we can agree on this. Others can be flat if made so.

Portability,
You have a point there what you said, but in general it seems to take a lot of effort. We need to think this how to change text.

Water,
New information for me. I guess would be for many others too. I would have to study more about this concrete.

Ventilation,
It's meant for drying after the rain. As stated, the flow of air above and below the teepad greatly enhances drying. Thus, the platform is quickly ready for use again.

Safety,
Instructions are for installation, maintenance and use. About standards I already posted details.

Ease of Acquisition,
I'm sure you could. Many others could not or might not be expensive. It depends on the situation, and everywhere cannot have the same fixed price.

Installation Speed, Total Price
It seems that this is where your personal professionalism comes to the fore. Unfortunately, not everyone has similar abilities.

I sincerely appreciate your and all of your comments. For some reason this feels a bit unwelcome, so I apologize if I have offended.

 

[ru4por]

Another note:

Advertising - in my area any advertising along the edges of the flatpad would quickly get hidden by grass growing up along the sides.
Also, while other tee areas don't have advertising on the tee pad itself they still have ads/sponsors on the tee signs.

Lol...in my area it would be dispensary stickers, drawn flaming penis and ace recordings.

 

[jakebake91]

Lol...in my area it would be dispensary stickers, drawn flaming penis and ace recordings.

Is there enough space for a disc charging station too???

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Thank you very much for the answer and the insight. I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

Size,
Yes, we have a selection of them. For other solutions, it is purely defined and designed. However, infinite is not really an option.

Infinite means that every size is an option. You have no benefit here, none.

Flatness,
Seems like we can agree on this. Others can be flat if made so.

Let me use your style in reponse to this: "Flatpads are flat only if installed correctly, and this depends on the installers."

Water,
New information for me. I guess would be for many others too. I would have to study more about this concrete.

Pervious concrete is in use at Naval Hill in Nashville as one example. It's an excellent surface.

Ventilation,
It's meant for drying after the rain. As stated, the flow of air above and below the teepad greatly enhances drying. Thus, the platform is quickly ready for use again.

Ah, this is where concrete shines. It doesn't hold water like turf does. It can get slick when wet if not installed correctly or if worn down to the aggregate if smooth gravel was used, but not a problem with crushed stone. Typical concrete dries fairly quickly as well.

Safety,
Instructions are for installation, maintenance and use. About standards I already posted details.

Except you didn't really post any standards or links to any standards. You posted a link to your website which claims, by reference only, that you follow a Finnish standard based on EU standard SFS-EN 15312 + A1 which apparently doesn't address anything specific to disc golf nor contain any specific statement about the height of disc golf tee pads. So, please post the text of the applicable standard that you claim to have followed.

Ease of Acquisition,
I'm sure you could. Many others could not or might not be expensive. It depends on the situation, and everywhere cannot have the same fixed price.

This is true, but you made no such qualification in the chart that you posted. In most cases, indeed the vast majority of cases, I suspect that your pads are considerably more expensive than any other option.

Installation Speed, Total Price
It seems that this is where your personal professionalism comes to the fore. Unfortunately, not everyone has similar abilities.

Anyone can call a concrete or general contractor. Anyone.

I sincerely appreciate your and all of your comments. For some reason this feels a bit unwelcome, so I apologize if I have offended.

I am not easily offended and I don't think that is what you intended to do. But you are making claims, many of which are nonsensical and some of which are false. I am not a marketer, but I can't imagine that those claims will help your cause with people who are experienced in disc golf course installation.

As for the safety issue, the more you refer to standards that you are unwilling to quote, especially when you have shown the propensity to be less than truthful in your marketing, the less likely I am to believe that the drop-off issue conforms to any specific standard and that your claims regarding conformance to such standards is just another lie. I hope you can prove me wrong on this, but you have not done it so far.

 

[DavidSauls]

Any chart like that sets off sirens. A claim that something's vastly better than the alternatives, in all aspects, certainly raises eyebrows.

But there may be a market for them. Speed of install and portability? Nice, but I'd think there are limited places where it's worth an extra $70,000 for 18 holes.

 

[Flatpad]

I don't want to get into an endless argument, so I'll keep this short.

So I am referring to the standard which can be found at this link below. You can buy your own copy there. I cannot copy individual sections, due to copyright.

https://www.en-standard.eu/csn-en-15312-a1-free-access-multi-sports-equipment-requirements-including-safety-and-test-methods/

I commented on other claims or points that there are alternatives for other solutions as well. They just need to be defined, designed and built.

It's like trying to sell shoes to a shoemaker. So I totally understand the resistance. Thank you very much for your interest and all the comments.

 

[jupiterboy]

Not sure what is meant by earthworks.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

I like this thread, plenty of drama to keep it entertaining, I'll keep clicking on it for the entertainment value. I'm even intrigued enough to maybe drive slightly out of my way to see a course with them installed. But I am certainly not convicted that I, or any course really, will have a need for this product.

The right sales pitch, to the right people, in the positions with the money to spend - maybe it's a viable business model. I make my living selling a high end product to a market that could get by just fine with a crushed beer can, so I get it.. Best of luck to you, I look forward to playing on one someday. If nothing else because I know that course had enough funds to throw around, it is likely pretty awesome in other aspects as well..

 

[txmxer]

I think you were doing okay until that marketing comparison.

Your product has some pros and some cons. That's why you have to find the right client.

 

[dmoore1998]

Infinite means that every size is an option. You have no benefit here, none.

1. I think the category is just poorly worded. I think the intent is to signify that the size can change easily, whereas once you have a 5 x 12 concrete pad you cannot easily change the size this month, and back to something else next month, etc.

2. I don't think that matters one bit. Who is buying the big one and then only using half of it? Probably nobody. It's just not a benefit, it is flexibility that has no real benefit.

 

[dmoore1998]

I think you were doing okay until that marketing comparison.

Your product has some pros and some cons. That's why you have to find the right client.

The problem with those charts becomes that the best ones highlight your own product above others, but do so in a way that feels truthful and balanced as if it were done independently.

That particular chart, every time it encounters something the other solutions do much better, bails out on the comparison with "it depends".

This product is inferior in lots of categories...but it shines in the portability and ability to have a temporary teepad without disturbing much of the current ground. That's going to be really great for some folks...but those folks aren't going to get that message if the message is "we're better at everything including being cost effective".

The marketing comparison is probably wholly irrelevant. This product isn't competing with concrete teepads...this product is only really viable for someone who NEEDS portable and temporary pads.

 

[TurnedOver]

The teepad is interesting, but the comparison chart was a bad idea.

You should outsource your marketing to someone with marketing experience.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Successful businesses usually address issues like we're bringing up. Then again, there are plenty of businessines that grow because they do things differently.

I'm not apologizing for what may seem like a harsh reception here. We're simply active and vocal members of the playing public, that you're attempting to reach, giving you our honest feedback about what you're showing us.

Again: hope this endeavor works out for you and wish the company well.

 

[Flatpad]

https://youtu.be/sFdcm2Ufvb0

 

[BuiltTooLong]

They just teed of Hole 14 with the Flatpad. It looked nice and the commentators sounded thankful for the sponsorship. I did notice that every single one of the 4 players teeing off, started with their heels hanging off the back of the teepad. So on a 344 foot hole, the players needed every single bit of the Flatpad, plus a little more. There would definitely be players that would probably attempt to step up onto the pad on their run-up if the hole required a bomb.