Form check, 220ft drives

[zmitchell]

Hey everyone, looking for some form critique.

I've been playing for a little less than a month, but I'm addicted. My drives are only making it about 220ft, so I've been watching/reading as much as I can on the subject.

There are some things I've noticed that won't come across in the video.

• Sometimes I feel the disc release from my ring and pinky fingers. Maybe this means the disc is traveling outwards rather than forwards? Or maybe it means that my hand is on the front of the disc rather than outside the disc? For reference, I'm using a power grip.
• It feels like a lot of my (physical) effort is wasted. I guess another way of putting this is that it doesn't feel like the output is proportional to the input.
• It doesn't feel like I'm "slinging" the disc so much as "throwing" it, if that makes any sense.

Finally, here's a link to the video: https://youtu.be/3veX2Px-tZk

Here are the things I noticed while watching myself:

• My right foot is opened up, probably because my left foot is turned backwards.
• The disc is released nose up. My reachback is high, so there's a dip in the middle of the throw.
• I'm probably losing power by collapsing my right leg rather than using it to stop forward motion.

Something I'm struggling with is rounding. I can tell when I'm badly rounding because my shoulder will hurt (don't worry, I'm taking it easy and closely monitoring it). I've read/heard that this comes from the shoulders rotating before the arm does, so th arm lags behind and is pressed against your pec. It's my nature to overthink things, so I'm struggling to understand where the rotation of the upper body comes from. Am I supposed to pull my elbow back to get the disc to the "power pocket"? Am I supposed to use my core to rotate my body while keeping my shoulder joint stiff?

If I totally ignore my lower body i.e. don't think about it, start with the disc in the power pocket, focus on keeping the disc aligned with my forearm, and focus on following through, everything feels much smoother, the disc flies straighter, and it reliably goes ~150ft or so (didn't actually measure it). It seems like this is the feeling I should be aiming for in my throw.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Putt for D'oh]

A lot there.
Something I discovered about a year ago. The correct look to the end of the throw and follow through happens when everything at the start is correct.

That collapsing front leg I know how it feels and that is forcing the rear knee in and really trying to make the finish position look right when the whole setup is wrong. It REALLY hurt my knee.

Starts with the X-step. Too low and flat footed, too long and turning back too early. About any one of those things will cause you to turn the rear foot and keep your weight on the rear heel. All of it together and you have an anchor back there holding your hips in place.

Short X-step. I am back to not doing a full X-step but a bit more like a Pitcher with a runner on first.

Compare and contrast the meat of your throw with this:

 

[dizzyj]

First thing

Look at your back foot when you set your x step. Pointed backwards almost. Then when you plant your front foot it's pointed more towards the basket. This is an open stance. Ie duck feet. It removes your hips completely out of the throw.

Stand in a duck stance and see how easily you can rotate your hips. Not very easy

Now put your back foot parallel to the basket and your front foot pointed slightly backwards and try rotating. Way more rotation. Hip engagement

I have this same problem and have been working on fixing it by consciously thinking about how my x step foot is pointed. I have to actually "force" my foot/leg to cross under but land parallel to the basket. It's not natural for me and when I get tired/nervous I fall back to the classic open stance.

I'd work on that first.

Caveat. I throw 280/300. Not 4-450+ like most everyone on here

 

[DiscFifty]

If I could go back in time, I wouldn't even THINK about an x-step until I was throwing 200-250 with a putter from a stand still or 1 step stand still. You're focusing too much on the end result and skipping some much needed steps in the process. Seriously..forget about the x-step for a while and just concentrate on stand stills. The one step stand still is just your plant foot extending out as you lean into the throw btw.

Goal #1: Throwing a putter 150+ from a stand still.
Goal #2: Throwing a putter 200+ from a 1 step stand still.

Btw..it may take you a few days, or a few weeks, but once you start throwing your putter 200ft+ from a 1 step stand still you're going to experience a "wow..that felt so easy" moment that all of us experience. Stick with this a while longer, and you'll be throwing your putter 250 from a 1 step stand still. Building muscle memory is key in this game and if your limited in time, I've found that throwing a few minutes each day is better than just throwing on the weekend for long periods. Good luck!

I'm an old dude who also can't throw 400, but I can definitely throw a putter 275+.

 

[zmitchell]

Short X-step. I am back to not doing a full X-step but a bit more like a Pitcher with a runner on first.

That helps, I used to be a pitcher I'm hoping that one day that will come in handy when I start learning a forehand.

Look at your back foot when you set your x step. Pointed backwards almost.

I mentioned that in my post. It almost seems like I'm going to have to think "pidgeon-toed" for my stance just to get parallel.

If I could go back in time, I wouldn't even THINK about an x-step until I was throwing 200-250 with a putter from a stand still or 1 step stand still.

I've started doing something along these lines. I've gotten rid of the reachback and I'm starting with the disc at my chest so that there's one less timing thing to mess up (and because rounding was hurting my shoulder). The issue is that I'm able to throw a putter >200ft without the x-step already, but mostly using my arm.

but once you start throwing your putter 200ft+ from a 1 step stand still you're going to experience a "wow..that felt so easy" moment that all of us experience.

This is what I'm aiming for. I've noticed that if I'm just screwing around I can sling a disc on a straight line with very little effort, so I'm trying to capture that feeling in an honest to goodness drive.

I'm an old dude who also can't throw 400, but I can definitely throw a putter 275+.

This is what's frustrating lol I'm young and probably much stronger than the average disc golfer, so I should be able to throw a disc 800ft, right? Nope! It's really hard to fight the urge to muscle up or hulk out on a disc.

I haven't been able to get much practice in since I made this post, but hopefully I'll have some new video to post tomorrow. Thanks for you advice everyone!

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I mentioned that in my post. It almost seems like I'm going to have to think "pidgeon-toed" for my stance just to get parallel.
!

I personally don't think this is the correct fix. Getting your whole body into the correct movement and balance will fix the issue. I've found the hard way, that concentrating on one thing like my foot position results in all kinds of other stuff going way outta whack, as well it causes you to (just like how you are pushing the rear knee in and down to mimic the "proper" look) not gain, or maybe lose the benefit of the correct form.
One reason for SW's so many drills, is because it allows you to think and focus on one aspect of the throw without F-ing up something else. Create the correct feelings so then you can go out and worry about the line you want to hit rather than whet the body is doing.
(easier said than done for me apparently)

I'm not SW and screen caps and vid linking are way beyond what i'm investing into a response time wise, but if you look through a lot of different critique threads there can be pics of right after the plant foot crosses back over the X-step. When feet are about shoulder width apart traveling to the plant. The pic used a lot is of simon, but if you look all of the Pro examples are eyes on the target and disc still forward or maybe right pec area. Almost all of us with issues starting out are most of the way done with the reach back.
The other thing for you to look at is, how long your X-step is, then as you plant your left heel in the ground look how squatted you are.
The long X-step, in order to get your weight back forward of your left leg you kinda have to push off the rear foot, AND with the weight on the rear foot (i've seen with my throw) there is a heel pivot as you try and load your hips. That is the anchor being dropped and from that point on the throw is toast.

So... from the standstill or even a slide step get up on the ball of your left foot. Get tall. Look at that vid by Hud throwing a brick really tall with the weight on the left foot.

 

[DiscFifty]

This is what's frustrating lol I'm young and probably much stronger than the average disc golfer, so I should be able to throw a disc 800ft, right? Nope! It's really hard to fight the urge to muscle up or hulk out on a disc.

Strength isn't really an issue with distance in disc golf. It's more about flexibility, toning, etc, imop. The ability to fire your twitch muscles quickly is hugely important. No amount of "visually perfect form" will make you throw 400ft+ if you have slow arm speed, or not understanding snap/whip and how that affects the ejection speed of the disc. Again...I know working on form visually can be addictive. I've played with countless younger guys that on video their form looks as good or better than most pros. But they can't throw 300ft. Stay the course, practice those stand stills, put in the hours, good things will happen.

As far as improving "arm speed" there's controversy out there how to improve it, and many people don't agree with me, but when I read that Eagle chunked overstable discs as hard as he could, over and over, and that's what helped him maximize distance, I started doing overstable drills and it helped immensely. (Basically throwing overstable discs over and over, keeping track of your distance, and trying to beat it repeatedly.)

And finally.. I DEFINITELY think there is a huge difference throwing at 70-80% (relaxed, normal drive) and throwing at 100% power. That's why it's important to max out your drive power once in a while so your mind/body gets used to firing full throttle. I think when people "grip lock" this is a sign of not practicing throwing full power more often and the mind/body not able to react accordingly.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've played with countless younger guys that on video their form looks as good or better than most pros. But they can't throw 300ft.

I've never seen this "great form" that can't throw 300'.

As far as improving "arm speed" there's controversy out there how to improve it, and many people don't agree with me, but when I read that Eagle chunked overstable discs as hard as he could, over and over, and that's what helped him maximize distance, I started doing overstable drills and it helped immensely. (Basically throwing overstable discs over and over, keeping track of your distance, and trying to beat it repeatedly.)

Recipe of the "modern" disc golf swing.
I'm with Seppo on the "classic" swing being better for the body: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFSuhweQI88#t=3m

And finally.. I DEFINITELY think there is a huge difference throwing at 70-80% (relaxed, normal drive) and throwing at 100% power. That's why it's important to max out your drive power once in a while so your mind/body gets used to firing full throttle. I think when people "grip lock" this is a sign of not practicing throwing full power more often and the mind/body not able to react accordingly.

I never throw harder than 70-80%. I make my swing longer to throw further like the long toss drill in baseball - effortless. Most new players learn how to strong arm by throwing fast overstable discs as hard as possible - I was one of them. Discing down is the way to learn to throw properly

Griplock happens when the body is opened way ahead of the arm and they manage to hold on to near full release of the whip and where the body is pointing the whip - WTF Richard.

 

[DiscFifty]

I've never seen this "great form" that can't throw 300'.

Do you play minis locally? That's where I find countless (over the years) players from 14-20+ that have duplicated the "look" of a great form, almost like learning a dance move, but they can't throw past 300. Don't get me wrong... they might be able to years later, but I see this quite often.

I never throw harder than 70-80%. I make my swing longer to throw further like the long toss drill in baseball - effortless. Most new players learn how to strong arm by throwing fast overstable discs as hard as possible - I was one of them. Discing down is the way to learn to throw properly

You don't think Paul, Simon, Eagle throw 100% max power once in a while to get every ounce of feet they can? Eagle, you can see a dramatic change in his form, "huck face", etc, when he is going for serious distance. Paul has a dramatically longer run up when he throws max distance. Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree throwing slower discs is vital and when I play serious 99% of my throws are speed 6-9. But for drills, throwing overstable discs (I primarily throw harp, gator, firebirds for these drills) has done wonders. My stand still approach shots especially. And ofcourse I don't recommend these drills to "learn how to throw properly" I recommend these drills to mainly increase snap to get more spin on the disc.

Griplock happens when the body is opened way ahead of the arm and they manage to hold on to near full release of the whip and where the body is pointing the whip - WTF Richard.

For sure, but again..I think there is an obvious difference throwing max d and throwing a 70-80% golf line. And if you don't practice what it feels like to throw max d, you will probably grip lock more often when the time comes to throw max d.

 

[sidewinder22]

Do you play minis locally? That's where I find countless (over the years) players from 14-20+ that have duplicated the "look" of a great form, almost like learning a dance move, but they can't throw past 300. Don't get me wrong... they might be able to years later, but I see this quite often.

You must have a different "look" of great form than I do. I've seen a lot of players throw in person and online and never seen what you are describing. Maybe they copied one certain aspect of the throw, but not the whole deal.

You don't think Paul, Simon, Eagle throw 100% max power once in a while to get every ounce of feet they can? Eagle, you can see a dramatic change in his form, "huck face", etc, when he is going for serious distance. Paul has a dramatically longer run up when he throws max distance. Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree throwing slower discs is vital and when I play serious 99% of my throws are speed 6-9. But for drills, throwing overstable discs (I primarily throw harp, gator, firebirds for these drills) has done wonders. My stand still approach shots especially. And ofcourse I don't recommend these drills to "learn how to throw properly" I recommend these drills to mainly increase snap to get more spin on the disc.

For sure, but again..I think there is an obvious difference throwing max d and throwing a 70-80% golf line. And if you don't practice what it feels like to throw max d, you will probably grip lock more often when the time comes to throw max d.

Eagle for sure throws 100% which is why I'm not enamored with his form.

Longer/faster run up makes the swing longer, not necessarily throwing harder.

I have no idea how throwing overstable discs will help with snap and spin, although it can help with learning to throw nose down which is what I suspect you are seeing rather than more snap/spin. Drivers need more speed to fly, not spin. Keeping the nose down decreases the drag on the disc which allows it to fly faster and further.

This is Paul on a distance drive, looks pretty free wheeling and effortless to me:


Ken Jarvis said he trained by making his throw as effortless as possible and you can see it in his form and he held the distance record with a teebird at 810'. I can only imagine how far Eagle would throw with Ken's form and having at least a foot longer wing span.

 

[DiscFifty]

I have no idea how throwing overstable discs will help with snap and spin, although it can help with learning to throw nose down which is what I suspect you are seeing rather than more snap/spin. Drivers need more speed to fly, not spin. Keeping the nose down decreases the drag on the disc which allows it to fly faster and further.

You're probably correct, because I do a combination of throwing very overstable slow speed discs and puttersin my drills. I know the slower speed discs need more spin, faster discs need speed. So it's a combination of both that have helped me. And as I have posted several times, the biggest improvement has been with my slower speed discs, approach shots, stand still shots, etc.

In regards to Paul, I've seen him (oddly enough, more so this year) when throwing for what appears to be max d, have a vastly different run up to my eyes. Longer, faster, more bounce in his steps, more anny, etc. You're not seeing that???

 

[sidewinder22]

In regards to Paul, I've seen him (oddly enough, more so this year) when throwing for what appears to be max d, have a vastly different run up to my eyes. Longer, faster, more bounce in his steps, more anny, etc. You're not seeing that???

IDK haven't paid much attention or noticed. Anhyzer is working against gravity, and increasing run up speed increases centrifugal force that often creates a harder looking huck face. More bounce/hop in the steps to me also means using more gravity to do the work rather than the arm muscles.

 

[zmitchell]

No new videos, but I had a little bit of a lightbulb moment after watching the "Butt wipe/inside throw" video. When doing the "inside throw" I felt the twist in my torso in a way that I hadn't before. This reminded me of a torsion spring. So, here's how I'm thinking of the throw now:

• The torso is a torsion spring.
• During the backswing you are twisting the spring (winding it up).
• Once your front foot lands and the hips rotate you do two things simultaneously: (1) twist the bottom of the spring even more, (2) get the front hip out of the way so that the torso can rotate forward without fighting itself ie without winding itself up again
• The torsion spring starts to unload. Your upper arm is used as a lever to convert the torque from your unwinding torso into linear motion.

After this epiphany I've been able to get putters out to 220'-240' pretty regularly, and I got my midranges out to about 290'.

I can tell just by the way it feels that I'm not using the brace effectively yet. It feels like I'm stopping the lateral motion, but it doesn't feel like it's bringing my front hip around as part of that torsion spring yet.

 

[zmitchell]

New video, though I'm not sure whether anything has really changed.



It looks like I never really get on top of the front leg, and it looks like my front knee opens up wider than it should while it's supposed to be bracing.

I have some questions.

• How do you get the elbow out front? Are you actively pulling it back, or when you shift into the brace does the momentum carry the arm forward?
• When you shift your weight, are you letting gravity pull you down and forward, or are you pushing off with the back foot with a good amount of effort?
• I'm not incredibly mobile in my hips. Should that be keeping me from hitting 300', or will that only hinder me as I try to hit bigger numbers?

 

[sidewinder22]

Balance on front leg = bracing. One Leg Drill should feel very weird and foreign to you in a good way being upright balanced on it.

1. Don't pull the elbow forward, it basically stays forward relative to you as you rotate and just bends and extends. Your weightshift will also help bring the elbow forward.

2. Assist gravity, pump with it like a swing set.

3. Shouldn't be an issue. A narrow stance will increase your hip mobility in the swing. Wide stance restricts the hips and makes it hard to actually shift your weight back and forth.