Hammer Pound to Throw

[epkade]

Hi all. I am working on my rhbh. I'm really new and have been practicing the hammer drills off and on. I think I am feeling the hammer drill correctly, but I cannot seem to move the feel of pounding the hammer over to when I am actually trying to throw the disc. I believe I may actually be letting go of the disc instead of hanging on to it and pinching at the end. I really don't feel the weight of it either.

I seem to be able to feel the weight of the disc when I work on a slow version of my drive, but once I get things up to speed I lose the pound feeling and feel like the disc doesn't pivot my finger and instead just glides right out.

I am just feeling rather frustrated and am wondering if you all have any advice or thoughts on what I could be screwing up? Maybe I just have to work on a lot of slow mo drills to put that feeling into muscle memory. :wall:

Thanks for any advice in advance!

 

[Dan Ensor]

Speed will come. Keep the feeling.

 

[slowplastic]

Check out this thread, I made a diagram where I try to show how to get the hammer pound feel in a throw. It may help. Don't focus too much on the pivot feel, it's automatic if everything else is right. Worry about elbow position and muscle timing.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109910

 

[Josiah]

http://heavydisc.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-backhand-bible.html?m=1
this is a pretty good guide I have been reading about once a week.

 

[Star Shark]

As your speed increases, your rhythm of the trhow has to speed up too. The hit will come at the same point in the physical alignments but it will happen quicker on fasther throwing motion. I find listening to music in my field sessions helps me get that going

 

[Brodysseus]

Speed will come. Keep the feeling.

This. If you're feeling it when you're moving slow, keep moving slow. Slow is smooth, smooth is far.

 

[rhatton1]

This is where the idea of "working from the hit backwards" (the bit that not enough is focused on in the Beto drill video) comes in so well.

Find the feeling from pounding the hammer, then do this from the right pec and keep feeling of the pound, then add a bit more body movement but just keep making sure everything you add allows you to keep that feeling so only add a bit at a time. Focus less on flight lines/distance and more on keeping the feeling as you add more motion - this can take a lot of field practice before it clicks all the way back to a full xstep and reachback. I think Beto took something like 2 weeks of hours a day in the field to go from half hitting to fullhitting by doing just this

If you do the hammer pound and then jump straight to an x step with full reachback you will almost certainly not keep the feeling at the hit.

 

[Mocheez]

I've never benefited from right pec drills because I can't get the feeling of pounding the hammer without a reachback. When I throw from the right pec without a reachback, it just feels like I am strong arming.

I've had better results from Brad Walker's closed shoulder snap drill.

 

[Mocheez]

I am curious to know how you guys pound the hammer from the right pec. Don't you need to chop the elbow in order to pound the hammer? How do you chop your elbow when it is already extended past 90 degrees?

Also, I am pretty sure that Beato throws using the rail method which doesn't utilize a hammer pound.

I think if you are going to throw using the hammer pound method, then you are better off with Brad Walker's closed shoulder snap drill. If you are throwing with Beato's rail, then you are better off with right pec drills.

Are there any DGR old timers around that can clarify this?

 

[garublador]

The right pec drill predates the hammer pound by a couple years, IIRC. It's probably not a huge deal to be able to get a good hammer pound from the right pec if you can get one with a bit more of a reach back.

As for the OP, I'd just figure out how to get a decent release first, then try to strengthen it with the hammer pound. These drills are more useful if you have a few fundamentals under your belt.

 

[elmexdela]

im currently re-inventing my throw and ive been playing for 5+ years. slow is smooth, smooth as far. when i dont try to do a fast run up and really try to just crank it out there, but slow down focus on a smooth hit i find more accuracy and distance.

just my experience. i havent seen your throw and idk what your doing. just what ive been going through recently

 

[epkade]

I had a chance to video my throws today. I've improved but have a long way to go. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110169

 

[rhatton1]

I am curious to know how you guys pound the hammer from the right pec. Don't you need to chop the elbow in order to pound the hammer? How do you chop your elbow when it is already extended past 90 degrees?

Also, I am pretty sure that Beato throws using the rail method which doesn't utilize a hammer pound.

I think if you are going to throw using the hammer pound method, then you are better off with Brad Walker's closed shoulder snap drill. If you are throwing with Beato's rail, then you are better off with right pec drills.

Are there any DGR old timers around that can clarify this?

From DGR -

"This form is self-correcting. If you swing wide, you can't pound the hammer. If you swing with rushed shoulders, you can't pound the hammer. If you are tense and rigid, you can't pound the hammer.

You'll probably find that you don't need to use any torso, shoulders, or legs to get a strong hammer pound. When you hit the field try throwing while focusing on the hammer pound and no extra body motion. You should find you are getting fast, straight throws (hardly any turn/fade) and all of this without a run up, huge reach back, etc.

To build power you can slowly integrate in longer motions. Work from the hit back and only add things if the feel and timing makes the hammer pound STRONGER. If it doesn't contribute to the hammer pound, get rid of it or change it until it does make things stronger."

Elbow is already out and it's the lower arm chop and pulling the head of the disc round that is the hammer pound (or at least this is how I teach it - as small as possible to begin with to get the feel) . You can do this with about 8" of motion and get long straight beautifully spinning throws from it (I use it as a way of showing new players with overstable discs doing crazy long run ups and then throwing 150' that there is an easier way...) Blake talks somewhere else about how he can get over 250' distance with just this tiny motion, I believe him, it's insanely powerful and he does it a lot quicker than me. i've just started using it as my approach shot to try and keep the same action through all my backhand, it throws crazy straight lines up wind or downwind and is so controllable distance wise, i wish I had converted earlier.

For me the rail method still pounds the hammer, it actually makes the hammer pound more powerful by adding even greater an angle to it, it just happens even later in the throw. I think. I hope. Otherwise I've misunderstood something fundamental, or I'm doing one thing but thinking i'm doing another (entirely feasible!)

 

[rhatton1]

Up until this summer I was a bigger fan of the closed shoulder drill than the right pec. I've been working very hard on form this summer and doing a lot of teaching which has made me think so much more about all the minutiae.

I never previously got on brilliantly with the right pec drill, sometimes I could fire it out there, sometimes I couldn't I could never put my finger on why. With the closed shoulder I always fired, it was far more intuitive for me at least.

This summer i've been playing around with hammer drills/rail lines etc and trying to find the way to incorporate the strongest feeling hammer pound from the Hit back.

Starting by trying to get the hammer feeling with the smallest amount of movement - like a tiny amount of movement - concentrating on dragging the nose around (flicking the coin with the thumb, using the water bottle method, all these things suddenly have made sense to me this summer), and have the disc fighting to break my grip even from a couple of inches of pound.

I've found adding more motion the only way I can get a good hammer pound feeling from the right pec is to use more of a rail line, out away slightly from the body instead of through straight(my shoulders getting in front of my rotation is my biggest ingrained form issue, it's been and still is a bugger to break, arcing away from the body stops this and lets me get the feeling of the weight of the disc better) Going with the Beto/Nate Doss rail from the right pec makes the hammer pound insanely powerful when timed correctly, which is really, really late, much later than the straight pull. I'm now getting consistent with it as I finally understand what is producing the good feeling and can recapture it with a couple of practice pounds. Whereas in the past it would come and go and I couldn't say why one throw was so much more powerful and further than the other. The closed shoulder works better with a straighter pull through, it doesn't allow for an in out motion so well. Both drills still pound it though.

TBH i'm still inconsistent adding much more body movement beyond the right pec as I have the ingrained issues of shoulders getting in front of the hips and also collapsing weight over the front foot, but it's starting to come together and when firing it's effortless and huge. The same day though can see a difference of over 100' on straight line throws whilst I try and dial it in. I wish I could get out daily to play but kids are scuppering that!

Good god that was a bit of a bored Friday afternoon, sleep deprived ramble!Not even really sure what my point was but I've written it now so pick apart or ignore as you wish

 

[rhatton1]

This has just made me re read the incomplete super sekret technique yet again!

Garublador has some sage words of advice in on page 7 Good to see so many of the same people still posting!

 

[rhatton1]

Link for anyone that hasn't read it - it's well worth it. - https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19220&start=90

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Hatton - I assume the bambino/bambina has arrived? Congrats!!

I've not blathered on in way too long, and I'll probably just copy this later and post it on the blog - so let's pontificate (I blame rhatton for the following)...

I think that the single biggest issue for the Beato drill is that with no step and no arm, most people look at you like you're insane when you say "Put the disc here and throw it."

It's like a bar trick or something.

And the trick - the way Beto does it in the video, is that you have to actuate the torsion in your hips and spine by dragging your back foot to get your hips to twist your spine.

The next trick - is that he worked on exercises that promoted fast twitch muscle (as he talked about on that DGR thread, if I recall).

The way that I promote using the drill, is more like this: do the drill slowly, not anywhere near as hard as you can. I was able to discover the feeling of late acceleration by slowly moving the disc into the right pec, which requires you to allow your wrist to stay loose enough to bend in order to keep the hand on the outside.

From that position, the elbow smack/ hand smack out front extension should let you hit 200-250' with basically no hips, no backswing, no real arm muscle involvement.

It's just the collapsing and then un-folding of the levers and hinges that make up our arm/wrist/grip.

Just based on distance, that part of the system accounts for at least 50% - 65% of the force.

Adding in a way to increase rotational force around your vertical axis - at least the way I've come at it, is not by dragging my back foot to actuate my hips, but by more of a ball golf back foot - that rolls into the back instep from the ball of the back foot. SW22's video is the definition of this, you will see a crease in your pants pocket as you create the torque. It's more controlled for me than dragging a foot to kick off the hips.

The bracing of the plant foot, timed with guiding to the right pec - that should add force into the elbow smack and also load your wrist. From that position, the hammer pound should be so forceful that you can't hold the disc.

You should be able to do all of this as slowly as you want, and add in various amount of pressure to the system to add distance.

 

[rhatton1]

The baby has arrived safe and sound thanks! Amazingly I've managed to get out and play a couple of times and got some lunchtime practice in too so im feelng very pleased with myself!

I like the description of bar room trick! It does kinda feel like that, such a tiny motion can generate huge power and control.

 

[zgmc]

Hatton -

From that position, the elbow smack/ hand smack out front extension should let you hit 200-250' with basically no hips, no backswing, no real arm muscle involvement.

It's just the collapsing and then un-folding of the levers and hinges that make up our arm/wrist/grip.

Just based on distance, that part of the system accounts for at least 50% - 65% of the force.

I was in the field throwing today, and decided to throw a few left handed.(I have probably only thrown 10 left handed shots in my life) I was just focusing on getting my elbow out in front. I could really feel the wrist extension, and I had a few that went about 200'-225'. I don't feel that kind of extension right handed at that distance.

 

[epkade]

...

The next trick - is that he worked on exercises that promoted fast
The way that I promote using the drill, is more like this: do the drill slowly, not anywhere near as hard as you can. I was able to discover the feeling of late acceleration by slowly moving the disc into the right pec, which requires you to allow your wrist to stay loose enough to bend in order to keep the hand on the outside.

From that position, the elbow smack/ hand smack out front extension should let you hit 200-250' with basically no hips, no backswing, no real arm muscle involvement.

It's just the collapsing and then un-folding of the levers and hinges that make up our arm/wrist/grip.

When I read this I wondered: if there is basically no hips, no backswing, no real arm muscle...what powers the throw at all? Maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part.... It seems as though the arm is the only thing moving in the right pec and/or the closed shoulder for the most part...so it confusingly seems like one is strong arming the disc. But at that point of the throw, is the last bit of power from the arm and the wrist/hammer? So from an active arm opening and an active wrist opening?