Have discs really improved that much over time?

[oddjob]

Won't manufacturers put pressure on the PDGA to change specs so they can produce new molds.

iirc dunipace was leading the charge to limit rim width during the warp speed driver arms race a few years back. doubt his opinion has changed.

 

[BuzzzChief]

In 1995 the fastest Innova discs were the Cheetah, Gazelle and Viper. There was no such thing as premium plastic. There were basically two companies producing discs.

Over the next 10 years a few more companies showed up, premium plastic was introduced, and we went from speed 6 to speed 11, breaking the distance record a bunch of times along the way.

Over the last 10 years the number of disc companies has exploded, the plastic and mold options have exploded, and we've gone to speed 14. Again, the distance record has been broken multiple times along the way.

 

[oddjob]

In 1995 the fastest Innova discs were the Cheetah, Gazelle and Viper. There was no such thing as premium plastic. There were basically two companies producing discs.

Over the next 10 years a few more companies showed up, premium plastic was introduced, and we went from speed 6 to speed 11, breaking the distance record a bunch of times along the way.

Over the last 10 years the number of disc companies has exploded, the plastic and mold options have exploded, and we've gone to speed 14. Again, the distance record has been broken multiple times along the way.

twice, no? once by 16 feet in 2012 and by 44 ft in 2014. both bliz bosses vs a dx valk.

distance records are kinda flukey anyway.

 

[McLovin]

I think everyone will agree, the Groove was a game changer....

 

[BuzzzChief]

twice, no? once by 16 feet in 2012 and by 44 ft in 2014. both bliz bosses vs a dx valk.

distance records are kinda flukey anyway.

I guess a "bunch" wasn't really correct, a "few" might have been more accurate. There was still progress over the last 20 years.

1995 Scott Stokely 200.01 Discraft X-Clone
1998 Scott Stokely 211.32 Discraft XL
2001 Chris Voight 217.05 Discraft XS
2002 Ken Jarvis 247.00 Innova DX Teebird
2002 Christian Sandstrom 250.00 Innova DX Valkyrie
2012 David Wiggins Jr. 255.00 Innova Blizzard Boss
2014 Simon Lizotte 263.20 Innova Blizard Boss

 

[Jimb]

I compare high speed premium plastic drivers that have some high speed turn (like the destroyer) to oversized carbon fiber racquets in tennis. The sweet spot is so much larger in the oversized carbon fiber racquet compared to an old school wood/aluminum one.

:thmbup:

Minor thread drift...

And steel tennis racquets.

I ran across a Wilson T2000 at a yard sale and bought it for a friend who used to use one so that we can have an old school tennis throwdown sometime.

And have you looked at an old tennis racquet recently? It's crazy how small and, in the case of the T2000, round they are. What a huge difference in technology and specs.

 

[ThomasOrion]

yes...end thread

 

[Jimb]

Actually on topic here.

Regarding drivers, the Tern wasn't a "game changer" for me, but it definitely did gave me a moderate distance bump vs. OLFs. But, for me, that wide rim increase in distance came with a bit less accuracy. So where technology helped in one area, it didn't help in another.

Otherwise, I haven't found any new technology mids or putters that will replace my old school DX Aviars and Stingrays.

 

[lyleoross]

Based on the original post, I'd have to say that the new molds have actually decreased the game. They introduce a couple of issues. First, the focus has gone from the game of disc golf, to the game of long drives. In theory, all of these big drivers add lots of distance, not sure that is really true, despite distance records, but for sure, they seem to be harder to control. Disc golf is a game based on control and accuracy, we seem to be moving away from that. There is a reason why the top players still include guys like Shultz, Climo, Feldberg and Rico. These old guys focus on accuracy and technique over big guns. As a note, the frequency that I see the young big names shank in majors is pretty eye opening. Clearly, they are capable of compensating.

Going back ten years, the big hype was this new disc will add X amount to your distance. At one point I added up the distances that each new modification from either Discraft or Innova was supposed to add and I went from 350 feet to 450 feet just based on buying new discs, amazing!

Second, I only have one of the modern discs in my bag, the Destroyer; the Wraith is almost equivalent. All the rest are old school discs that are ten or more years older, with a few exceptions. It isn't that there aren't good discs coming out, but moving from disc to disc to disc becomes prohibitive to learning the discs you have and using them well. I'd argue that a player who knows their discs will always do better than the player with new plastic, no matter how fantastic it is.

 

[Vogeltr]

I was thinking about all the new and different discs that are out right now, and they all pretty much promise to lower scores, increase distance and take your game to the next level. But has disc technology really improved that much over the past twenty years, or even the past ten?

The two best selling discs are still rocs and aviars...Molds that are pretty old by any standard. I've got a lot of water on my local courses, so I lose a lot of discs and I end up trying a lot of different molds. I keep going back to older molds from the late 90s and early 2000s. Yes that's what I started with so that's what I'm going to be more comfortable with.

It just has me thinking has technology really made much of a difference. Or are we just buying because we like pretty plastic in a variety of colors and stamps...and I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. But If you gave MCBeth a 15 year old bag, would his scores change at all?

Just something I had been thinking about recently.

I seen on YouTube awhile ago McBeth did the Climo challenge used all dx plastic old run discs like cobras and stingray Disc played a round with them and he didn't do terrible. I think if he had practice with them he could do just as good. I think the newer discs are nice because you can do so much with them. Each new mold or plastic makes different shots possible.

 

[runningDoc]

Based on the original post, I'd have to say that the new molds have actually decreased the game. They introduce a couple of issues. First, the focus has gone from the game of disc golf, to the game of long drives. In theory, all of these big drivers add lots of distance, not sure that is really true, despite distance records, but for sure, they seem to be harder to control. Disc golf is a game based on control and accuracy, we seem to be moving away from that. There is a reason why the top players still include guys like Shultz, Climo, Feldberg and Rico. These old guys focus on accuracy and technique over big guns. As a note, the frequency that I see the young big names shank in majors is pretty eye opening. Clearly, they are capable of compensating.

I think high speed drivers that are very overstable but also have some high speed turn have changed the game because they increase the margin of error (make it easier) to throw longer distances with more accuracy under more conditions.

You can see McBeth and other new school players hitting such accurate lines up to 400ft+ even in the winds because of discs like the destroyer.

What ended up happening is that older courses that were originally played with things like teebirds and rocs are now being essentially drove with a destroyer then putting with an aviar.

You still have the same total distance potential throwing with a teebird or valkyrie (since they are still very close compared to blizzard boss in overall distance records), but its easier to hit 400+ft for distance and accuracy with a destroyer because of the increased high speed stability + a some turn even in windy conditions. Pro's can throw a star destroyer (or any manufacturer's other high speed driver) flat or on a hyzer 400+ft towards a target easily while doing that with a DX/Pro (even champion) teebird is doable but a lot more difficult.

I still think, the modern pro's have just as good as touch/finesse game as the old school pros. Even more variety now with big jerm, barsby, and wysocki often using midrange and putter sidearm shots (turnover/hyzer/ect), its just that they have those high speed drivers that make even difficult longer 500ft holes so easy to birdie now. I also believe that the new school players maybe more consistent putters inside and outside the circle (resulting from more training rather than disc tech).

Its the courses that haven't progressed or have been made obsolete by the new school drivers.

So the new disc technology just made the long drives better. but midrange/putting upshot game still is essentially the same (just like ball golf probably).

maybe disc golf at the highest levels can be like MLB and force the pro players to use old school discs (like wooden bats/leather balls/leather gloves), but its not likely (because of the money generated by new plastic/technology for the consumer masses). Embrace the future!

 

[Shamis]

Everything after the destroyer seems like a wash to me.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Just a small aside, I feel that the explosion of premium plastic allows players to "learn" their discs better, and keep them in the sweet spot longer, which results in more consistent performance on the course. A well seasoned Opto/VIP/Champion disc will hold it's flight for years of heavy use.

I know when I started 20 yrs ago, DX was the only plastic we had, and you'd "use up" a disc much faster than today's premium plastic blends that can last for years before they start to lose their flight pattern. It always felt to me - as soon as I started to really get a grip on what those DX discs would do - they'd hit enough trees and then lose the flight that I spent weeks "figuring out". Frustrating, to say the least!

These days, once you invest in premium discs that you like, only reason to replace them is if you chuck it in a lake or want to try something else... the discs don't give out like they used to back in the day.

I do think the emphasis on putting in today's DG culture has also upped the ante for a lot of guys. I know when I started, I was told "Don't use your putter until you are trying to get it IN the basket" (in the circle) because you can't get any distance out of it... :/ I really wish I could go back in time and change that to "As soon as you're within 180-200' of the basket - ALWAYS throw your putter. And if you're driving a 180-250' hole - USE YOUR PUTTER!"

 

[zendragon]

I agree with everyone who is saying plastic has been the biggest improvement to tech. It is great to have my disc fly the same after 1 round, unlike my older DX discs did. The newer designs of putters are nice too, allow for more controlled putter drives for me, but it's pretty minor comparatively.

 

[Moose33]

The best discs from the past will continue to hold up, but the main thing is there are discs out there from 6-10 companies in every category that are viable in almost every bag slot.

If the Trident had been released in 1996 it would have been one of the longest drivers at the time and thrown by a lot of players, instead it's going OOP since there are tons of great discs in that slot out there.

 

[Pbmercil]

I think high speed drivers that are very overstable but also have some high speed turn have changed the game because they increase the margin of error (make it easier) to throw longer distances with more accuracy under more conditions.

You can see McBeth and other new school players hitting such accurate lines up to 400ft+ even in the winds because of discs like the destroyer.

What ended up happening is that older courses that were originally played with things like teebirds and rocs are now being essentially drove with a destroyer then putting with an aviar.

You still have the same total distance potential throwing with a teebird or valkyrie (since they are still very close compared to blizzard boss in overall distance records), but its easier to hit 400+ft for distance and accuracy with a destroyer because of the increased high speed stability + a some turn even in windy conditions. Pro's can throw a star destroyer (or any manufacturer's other high speed driver) flat or on a hyzer 400+ft towards a target easily while doing that with a DX/Pro (even champion) teebird is doable but a lot more difficult.

I still think, the modern pro's have just as good as touch/finesse game as the old school pros. Even more variety now with big jerm, barsby, and wysocki often using midrange and putter sidearm shots (turnover/hyzer/ect), its just that they have those high speed drivers that make even difficult longer 500ft holes so easy to birdie now. I also believe that the new school players maybe more consistent putters inside and outside the circle (resulting from more training rather than disc tech).

Its the courses that haven't progressed or have been made obsolete by the new school drivers.

So the new disc technology just made the long drives better. but midrange/putting upshot game still is essentially the same (just like ball golf probably).

maybe disc golf at the highest levels can be like MLB and force the pro players to use old school discs (like wooden bats/leather balls/leather gloves), but its not likely (because of the money generated by new plastic/technology for the consumer masses). Embrace the future!

All this is 100% correct.

I will add that the proliferation of sidearm throwers is very closely tied to the advances in stable/OS fast drivers.

 

[Stable]

My bag is a mix of old and new. Some of my favorite molds were release 15-20 years ago (Comet, Firebird & Valkyrie) and some have come out recently (PA1, PA4 & Resistor).

 

[Disc of Cheese]

My observations over the years.
1. New plastics improved durability slowing flight changes over time.
2. Discs finally maxed out on the sharpness and rim width specs.
3. Blizzard technology allowed lower weights to be made with the better plastics.
4. Clarified what a "disc" means (i.e., has distinct top versus bottom shape, no scalloped or offset rim)
5. Two part fusion technology to adjust rim weight.
6. Allowing LEDs, light sticks and ribbons to temporarily be attached.
7. Electronics can now be permanently embedded.

Some unscientific results:
Players throwing farther but perhaps not more accurately.
Higher percentage of players throwing lighter than max weight discs, especially drivers.
Not sure as many players develop old school hyzer-flipping skill used with beat-up DX discs.
More good players throwing forehand (disc technology may only be a small contributor to this)

Also "blizzard", or bubble technology has allowed denser, heavier, more durable plastics to be used Plastics which would be too heavy to make a pdga legal disc out of without bubbles.

 

[tdschrock1]

Premium plastic significantly changes the break in time for a disc. We also have a ton of plastic varieties...

Wide rims give more distance potential.

More manufacturers=more molds and more innovation.

Globalization means I can have a disc made in Asia, Europe or the USA shipped to my house in a couple days.

I like where the disc market is at....

 

[RobA]

I agree with everyone else, putters and midranges have stayed the same from the time I stopped playing 13 years ago until now, except the plastics are better and more durable. What used to be long distance drivers are now called fairway drivers, and high speed drivers with some turn (Lace, Cannon) have let me bypass the break in period. I like the wide rimmed drivers not for the speed, but because I have large hands and they feel more comfortable to me.

I am the only person I know who doesn't carry an Innova disc (except for the devoted trilogy guys) and I carry one discraft. I used to carry only Innova and Discraft, but I like to keep things simple so I went with manufacturers with simpler line ups.