When I was a noob I didn't even know Innova existed for a couple months! It works both ways on that argument bro.
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[Innova] In defense of Innova...
- Thread starter onemilemore
- Start date
true, im in innova market SoCal wheres your closer to the discraft main HQ. Im just making a point whether it being right or wrong
If "grow the sport" is the phrase that pays, then imho, the way patent issues were handled by innova was un called for. Not to argue the rights of designers, but patent on all beveled edged discs???!
As far as consistancy goes, i prefer varience within molds and i find all brands with more then a few runs to have them. However, changing rims and tops back and forth without any heads up or markings is rude. Not only because its so easy now a days to comunicate, but because these went to well known online retailers where the chance for the consumer to feel the difference was low.
I applaud innova for producing the best glow line up and for rarely taking molds oop.
As far as consistancy goes, i prefer varience within molds and i find all brands with more then a few runs to have them. However, changing rims and tops back and forth without any heads up or markings is rude. Not only because its so easy now a days to comunicate, but because these went to well known online retailers where the chance for the consumer to feel the difference was low.
I applaud innova for producing the best glow line up and for rarely taking molds oop.
codyroberts18
Double Eagle Member
Innova is inconsistent, but I have found some of the same inconsistencies in Discraft discs as well. I have Buzzz's that are super domey to super flat and concave. Same with other Discraft discs I throw. No company makes discs that have little imperfections.
Another interesting thing is about different molds with the same name. Honestly, when you pick up a Valkyrie, if it has the plus mold, you know it does. You can feel it. If you pic up a Teebird that is the L mold, you can pick it up and tell it is a TL. I know some of you argue that not everyone knows the difference, but chances are if they don't know the difference in feel, they really aren't worried about it. I think everyone on this forum and on disc golf courses everywhere just wants something to hate on because this sport is so awesome. They can't really find anything to hate on except discs and baskets because everything else is pretty fun about it. Haters are gonna hate no matter what. Innova and Discraft and all other disc companies are inconsistent, it is just the nature of the beast so to speak.
Another interesting thing is about different molds with the same name. Honestly, when you pick up a Valkyrie, if it has the plus mold, you know it does. You can feel it. If you pic up a Teebird that is the L mold, you can pick it up and tell it is a TL. I know some of you argue that not everyone knows the difference, but chances are if they don't know the difference in feel, they really aren't worried about it. I think everyone on this forum and on disc golf courses everywhere just wants something to hate on because this sport is so awesome. They can't really find anything to hate on except discs and baskets because everything else is pretty fun about it. Haters are gonna hate no matter what. Innova and Discraft and all other disc companies are inconsistent, it is just the nature of the beast so to speak.
cfair
* Ace Member *
Does this contradict itself?
But anyway, I share some beef with Innova. A couple of carries in my area have a lot of Innova discs. One of the them was recently sent a batch Cro's that were stamped as Gators. Star and DX both... I just looked at it and kinda shook my head.
So it is mold issues, wrong stamps, and wrong markings. It is one thing that discs cool differently (dome, parting line, that sort of thing) it is a whole different one to bunk up the whole disc...
Qbert
Birdie Member
Inconsistencies are going to happen with any mass produced product. People wouldn't continue to buy their products if the inconsistencies were truly that bad. They wouldn't be the top dog on the market if it was. Their top dog status shows me that they still have more than enough satisfied customers.
Personally I haven't had any problems with Innova's molds. My 12x Teebird flies almost identically to my 11x. My stack of current DX Teebirds all fly the same. My Destroyers all fly the same as well. Based on what I have read on the boards one would think I have gotten extremely lucky with my purchases. I tend to think more that minor differences are found in discs and then are blown up about on the forum. My two cents
Personally I haven't had any problems with Innova's molds. My 12x Teebird flies almost identically to my 11x. My stack of current DX Teebirds all fly the same. My Destroyers all fly the same as well. Based on what I have read on the boards one would think I have gotten extremely lucky with my purchases. I tend to think more that minor differences are found in discs and then are blown up about on the forum. My two cents
Brick Forcepush
Eagle Member
i <3 Innova!
DOWN WITH DISCRAFT!!!
DOWN WITH DISCRAFT!!!
mackgeggie
Par Member
Innova is the only company that i can think of that markets factory seconds directly from their site. nuff said.
Sean Johnson
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2009
- Messages
- 646
This.
Putting out runs of discs with the wrong mold pieces is inexcusable. In what other industry would that be tolerated? I definatly agree that lots and lots of people don't seem to have a problem with it, but I do think that it will catch up with them. It happens so frequently that it really seems to be deliberate. I've heard that the whole Destrulcan debacle was due to some legal issues with the patent # on the Destroyer mold, but that doesn't excuse putting out thousands of discs with the wrong top on it. When I used to throw PDs, I was pretty pissed to find that my C-PD came with a + rim that I definately didn't ask for.
I can live with the changes in subjective categories like feel, durability, dome, etc., but knowingly releasing a disc when 1/3rd of it is wrong would really qualify as false advertising. Seriously, google it and read the definition and it meets most of the criteria. If they're not doing it on purpose, then their quality control is pathetic.
And for the record, I do still carry some Innova but I find myself slowly phasing them all out. It doesn't matter how sweet my 11x Firebird is, I won't find another under $20 if I lose it. And no, the new runs are not the same. They may be flat, but I've yet to find one that doesn't feel as stiff as a pyrex pie pan.
They have a huge market share, lots and lots of great molds, and they probably invest more in the sport/pro players than the next three (or all) companies combined imo. However, they've been around long enough that they should know that it's almost always cheaper to keep customers than to attract them.
You Innova bashers just keep selling your slightly broken-in Stars and Champs to PIAS, where I get 'em nice and cheap and throw 'em for years and years...
Absolutely.
Meh. I yearn for a tone that is "butter", not "roid".
What is the point of playing a stock strat? Not ripping out the crap electronics and replacing it with noiseless pickups and well shielded wiring is the same as always throwing only brand new DX Teebirds.
Only after you modify them (break them in) do the really come to life.
Nothing beats a Paul. Except, maybe, TWO Pauls. :thmbup:
Back on topic, if Innova didn't always tweak their plastics and such, we wouldn't have all the specific sought after variants (e.g. 11x Champ Firebirds, 11x Champ Eagles, KC Pro Teebirds, etc.)
Taking the same chances that are required for reaching those brilliant highs also allow for lousy lows.
As a contrast, I don't hear much about how brilliant certain runs of XLs and Predators were....
jobwilson
Eagle Member
Turner512
Par Member
Guys..... I like Innova.
Not gonna read the entire thread bit if there is one thing I want people to quote till the end of time its this... Never defend the largest manufacture of anything in any segment. Don't defend Microsoft, dont defend mc donalds, don't defend innova. They have the resources to do things the right way and they chose not to. It's not an issue of voting with your dollars when innova negotiated to be in target, meijer, and Wal-mart. Many people don't have a choice to vote with their dollars because of lack of choice.
They change mold without notice.. beast, valks, teebirds, eagles, rocs, destroyers, teerex, wraith, xcals, leopards etc. All the hugely popular molds have been changed without notice.. why would anyone defend that, you're hurting yourself as the consumer helping the huge company while they **** on you. Nobody should do this, small or large manufacturers.
The plastic gets progressively worse.. first ce, then candy, pearly champ, gummy and now ridged crap that people settle for. Proto destroyers feel so different than current run garbage its insane for people to think they are the same. I don't care that their cost became more. That's their problem as a manufacture not mine as a consumer. These now pro pds are complete trash.. new dx is absolute trash.. slick and poor wear. Other companies that produce things of plastic don't just change the blend as much as it does in discs. We are dumb to tolerate this crap. It's not right for gateway or innova.
The consistency is Soo poor from same runs its retarted. I don't care if you are making more discs than 10 years ago. Again your problem innova not mine. You want to be in this biz don't make excuses why the current champ leopards need to be thrown right in the trash. Domey garbage teebirds, eagles, gators, rocs. I don't wanna search through 10000 discs to maybe find one that meets my grade. I hate when people say " ohh, its not that different.." it is. I've played for 12 years and eagles on champ, teebirds in champ, firebirds in champ, fly nothing the same. No they don't. Nothing you can say can dissuade me from that. 40 dollar cal teebirds prove my point for me. 1% of 1% buy discs and hang them. If domey **** teebirds flew the same as good ones old teebirds would be wort less. I'm looking at you buzzz.....
My bag has innova, it always will but i get the luxury of looking through 1000s of discs and paying cost. I'm sorry to all you guys that aren't in my shoes. I know for a fact innova is paying cheap labor to pack orders an are completely swamped but i don't care. It's no excuse. Look at how nice old discs were stamped.. party time, prizem, oil slickery, and rainbows. New stuff looks bad and we go nuts when the factory store sends out glo gators for one good run and sells domey crap consecutive runs... Lap it up everyone bit remember, we have the power as a huge community with a voice and presence to make things the way we want.
You want ce? You want pearly grippy champ? Good dx? Candy pro? Bar stamped buzzzs, old mold beasts?, flat rocs? We have the power to demand it. Look how many posts in one day went in this. Keep accepting crap and keep getting crap. Enjoy your ridged no grip plastic....
They change mold without notice.. beast, valks, teebirds, eagles, rocs, destroyers, teerex, wraith, xcals, leopards etc. All the hugely popular molds have been changed without notice.. why would anyone defend that, you're hurting yourself as the consumer helping the huge company while they **** on you. Nobody should do this, small or large manufacturers.
The plastic gets progressively worse.. first ce, then candy, pearly champ, gummy and now ridged crap that people settle for. Proto destroyers feel so different than current run garbage its insane for people to think they are the same. I don't care that their cost became more. That's their problem as a manufacture not mine as a consumer. These now pro pds are complete trash.. new dx is absolute trash.. slick and poor wear. Other companies that produce things of plastic don't just change the blend as much as it does in discs. We are dumb to tolerate this crap. It's not right for gateway or innova.
The consistency is Soo poor from same runs its retarted. I don't care if you are making more discs than 10 years ago. Again your problem innova not mine. You want to be in this biz don't make excuses why the current champ leopards need to be thrown right in the trash. Domey garbage teebirds, eagles, gators, rocs. I don't wanna search through 10000 discs to maybe find one that meets my grade. I hate when people say " ohh, its not that different.." it is. I've played for 12 years and eagles on champ, teebirds in champ, firebirds in champ, fly nothing the same. No they don't. Nothing you can say can dissuade me from that. 40 dollar cal teebirds prove my point for me. 1% of 1% buy discs and hang them. If domey **** teebirds flew the same as good ones old teebirds would be wort less. I'm looking at you buzzz.....
My bag has innova, it always will but i get the luxury of looking through 1000s of discs and paying cost. I'm sorry to all you guys that aren't in my shoes. I know for a fact innova is paying cheap labor to pack orders an are completely swamped but i don't care. It's no excuse. Look at how nice old discs were stamped.. party time, prizem, oil slickery, and rainbows. New stuff looks bad and we go nuts when the factory store sends out glo gators for one good run and sells domey crap consecutive runs... Lap it up everyone bit remember, we have the power as a huge community with a voice and presence to make things the way we want.
You want ce? You want pearly grippy champ? Good dx? Candy pro? Bar stamped buzzzs, old mold beasts?, flat rocs? We have the power to demand it. Look how many posts in one day went in this. Keep accepting crap and keep getting crap. Enjoy your ridged no grip plastic....
Craton
Double Eagle Member
While I agree with a lot of people's gripes, and I'm by no means defending Innova, I merely would like to take this case example to charge the disc community with a few nuggets to ponder.
First off, mold changes. Yeah, it's annoying to have your favorite mold tweaked or completely revamped without being told so and having no sort of warning on the product that it's different. It's easily the biggest and most legit complaint anyone can have about the company. Yet, how long have those molds been around that we are currently using today? 15-20 years? To me, when I compare this to other sports, I have to kind of laugh. Why do people feel so entitled to be completely protected from the organic, messy process that is the birthing of a sport? These guys aren't just in the business of making a product; they've essentially spent their lives inventing a currently-developing sport. A lot of the molds we have today come with the guys upstairs tweaking this or that, trying to figure out how to push the limits on what can be done with a piece of plastic.
Speaking of plastic, I find it funny when people complain that plastic today isn't made like it used to be. Again, how long has that plastic even been available? People say that the plastic now is so inconsistent, but I find it hard to take stock in, since CE plastic is versatile in itself: rock hard champy, super slick, grippy/taffy, and probably other blends. KC Pro has a wide range as well, the 11x KC pro being nearly indestructible, but everything prior seems to be across the boards on durability, just as it is today. Plastic seems to be just another avenue that we, feel entitled to. Lately I've realized that maybe the reason that plastic is all over the place is what the company has available to it, since Innova is a consumer as well. Walking on the fence of possible conjecture, it seems to me with all the regulations on plastic manufacturers that have come about in the past several decades, that you'd expect a wide variance in the final product of companies like Innova, who aren't, to my knowledge, growing their own plastic from the ground up. With the demands they have for product, I wonder how much time Innova even has to tinker with every new batch of raw material before they have to mold it and ship it out.
These forums are awesome for getting the community heard, and, as the sport matures, I really hope that we can forge a relationship with our favorite companies. This way, they don't have to waste resources/$ on product that won't be bought, and we can return the favor by spreading the sport. All in all, I just get a bit weary of people feeling a sense of entitlement. You could probably support a family in a third world country with how much an avid discer spends on discs a year. Is this besides the point? A bit. But it lends itself well to keeping things in context that we as INCREDIBLY privileged Americans, and feel like everyone owes us.
/rant.
First off, mold changes. Yeah, it's annoying to have your favorite mold tweaked or completely revamped without being told so and having no sort of warning on the product that it's different. It's easily the biggest and most legit complaint anyone can have about the company. Yet, how long have those molds been around that we are currently using today? 15-20 years? To me, when I compare this to other sports, I have to kind of laugh. Why do people feel so entitled to be completely protected from the organic, messy process that is the birthing of a sport? These guys aren't just in the business of making a product; they've essentially spent their lives inventing a currently-developing sport. A lot of the molds we have today come with the guys upstairs tweaking this or that, trying to figure out how to push the limits on what can be done with a piece of plastic.
Speaking of plastic, I find it funny when people complain that plastic today isn't made like it used to be. Again, how long has that plastic even been available? People say that the plastic now is so inconsistent, but I find it hard to take stock in, since CE plastic is versatile in itself: rock hard champy, super slick, grippy/taffy, and probably other blends. KC Pro has a wide range as well, the 11x KC pro being nearly indestructible, but everything prior seems to be across the boards on durability, just as it is today. Plastic seems to be just another avenue that we, feel entitled to. Lately I've realized that maybe the reason that plastic is all over the place is what the company has available to it, since Innova is a consumer as well. Walking on the fence of possible conjecture, it seems to me with all the regulations on plastic manufacturers that have come about in the past several decades, that you'd expect a wide variance in the final product of companies like Innova, who aren't, to my knowledge, growing their own plastic from the ground up. With the demands they have for product, I wonder how much time Innova even has to tinker with every new batch of raw material before they have to mold it and ship it out.
These forums are awesome for getting the community heard, and, as the sport matures, I really hope that we can forge a relationship with our favorite companies. This way, they don't have to waste resources/$ on product that won't be bought, and we can return the favor by spreading the sport. All in all, I just get a bit weary of people feeling a sense of entitlement. You could probably support a family in a third world country with how much an avid discer spends on discs a year. Is this besides the point? A bit. But it lends itself well to keeping things in context that we as INCREDIBLY privileged Americans, and feel like everyone owes us.
/rant.
:clap:
remember2morrow
Eagle Member
I hear ya on that. No guitar gets a better pure clean tone than a strat. But what I play is FAR from butter.
It's just a personal preference. Kinda like how some guys can take a Leopard and shape a beautiful s-curve through a fairway, while others (my self included) would rather drop a hyzer-bomb on top of the basket. Both can accomplish what they're designed to do.
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