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[Innova] In defense of Innova...
- Thread starter onemilemore
- Start date
I agree with some of your points, despite being less than eloquently posed, however I feel that the above points are either completely wrong or contradict what you are saying here. 1) I don't know anyone that can't access the internet and buy discs that aren't Innova. It may be a little easier to buy Innova, but if the buyer is happy with their purchase they will take easy every time.
2) So you're saying you don't mind paying 30 - 40$ a disc for new discs from Innova? People love Rocs and Teebirds, but for that kind of money they'll learn to love buzzes, fuses, rivers, and whatever else comes somewhat close but for half the price. Manufacturing costs are our problem as consumers because they affect the price at which the finished product is sold. Basic economics.
3)Should they use "expensive" labor and raise their prices some more to pay for that? Sounds like if they sprung for the pricier laborers they'd be able to afford less of them and be even more swamped. Being the largest company in DG by far means that as the sport explodes, they have to expand quickly to keep up. With any fast growing company, there are going to be growing pains as they strive to meet demand. Yes, some of those growing pains affect us as golfers, but without Innova's growth there would be fewer disc golfers and therefore fewer mouthpieces for the sport, fewer courses, and fewer competing companies with lower cost and more examples of what works and what doesn't for them to base their discs off of.
And I stopped reading at this point.
Comparing a disc golf company to Microsoft and McDonalds is like comparing a local one day tournament to the PGA Masters.
:thmbdown:
onemilemore
* Ace Member *
Exactly. I would be willing to bet that, between Innova West and East, there are fewer than 100 employees. Hardly the ev empire here.
Whoever made the post about first world sense of entitlement nailed it.
Uncle Dougie
Double Eagle Member
Move thread to water cooler.
Comprehension Fail...both of you. :|
The comparison was not direct. It was an example of companies that are large and in charge within their respective industries.
I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but there are a lot of good points - both positive and negative - about Innova. Nothing new. I'm not a total hater, but I'm not exactly enamoured with them, either...it's definitely frustrating to feel like every time I buy a disc from them it'll be a crap shoot. Because of this, over half my bag is now from other companies although I still love a lot of Innova discs.
They're a good company. Could surely stand to do better in a number of very important areas, but they're not an evil empire or anything...even if they come across that way at times.
Regarding plastic - most of the plastics used have been around since the '40s and '50s. Simple fact is that anything you want can be made, and it can be made consistently and accurately. Innova's excuses and explanations here are pretty lame, imho. Much like the consistency/cooling issues, I suspect that it's a cost issue first and foremost. More than likely, the plastic supplier(s) they have relationships with change their offerings and/or pricing, and Innova responds with a business/cost decision. Short of mixing their resins from scratch, they may have their hands tied when it comes to getting what they want at the price they want - not that they couldn't seek elsewhere perhaps, but that would affect the bottom line, and seeing as though discs are already a bit pricey for what they are and dg'ers are pretty cheap folks usually...well. Concessions are made, for better or worse. But it's silly to believe that CE can't still be made or that Pro plastic is in danger of extinction. Geez.
Kabong's separate thread about environmental controls and consistency/cooling are spot on. Again, it's a cost issue. Personally, I'd be willing to pay a buck or two more for a disc if the increase reflected better quality control in the manufacturing process and more consistent plastic formulations. I actually find it remarkable that Innova has been willing to keep the wholesale cost of discs pretty steady for so long. The costs of oil, carbon black, and steel have skyrocketed over the last decade and all of those things directly affect the prices of plastic and manufacturing in general. Most other industries bumped up their selling prices by 15-25% several years ago, and those prices haven't come back down. So Kudos to Innova for that much.
Assuming that it would (could and should) rein in some of the stupid behavior regarding mold tweaking/revamping without name changes, etc., I wish the PDGA would make some changes to the disc approval system to help prevent this from happening. Of course, Innova or anyone else could still do this, but since the PDGA approval is important to them for each golf disc, if they had to pay the cost for the mold changes/tweaks each time, it might provide us all a little peace of mind that we could buy a certain model and actually get that certain model with only run variations/cooling issues to contend with.
HotPinkBeast
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 533
onemilemore
* Ace Member *
You make some excellent points, but I was awesome at comprehension in school. The issue I have is claiming that Innova, as the biggest company, are conducting themselves like those large companies in other industries do. Yes, their QC is lacking, but I think putting them on par with Walmart and Microsoft, while being used for the sake of comparison, if an exaggeration simply used to make a point sound stronger than it is. So, if my calling that out makes me lack comprehension, then so be it. Irrational arguments garner more attention, I know.
I am glad this kind of conversation exists, though. If anything, we can hope that someone at Innova or other companies is lurking on these boards and may see some of the discontent that exists.
When all is said and done, I think anyone can find an issue with any company. I think the anger at Innova is a product of high expectations, and that is a positive thing that people expect quality out of their products.
You still have much to learn, grassahoppah. Stick around awhile.
Innova (and others) are totally aware. Dollars are almost always the bottom line, however, with few exceptions. I don't think it's so much about high expectations as it is a lowered bar compared with where the bar used to be positioned.
Something else to keep in mind is that we're all fortunate that disc manufacturers are generally in it because they love the sport. That does provide some dedication and innovation, and gives the rest of us some hope and maybe slightly better products than we might have otherwise. Not all industries/products are that blessed.
onemilemore
* Ace Member *
You still have much to learn, grassahoppah. Stick around awhile.
Innova (and others) are totally aware. Dollars are almost always the bottom line, however, with few exceptions. I don't think it's so much about high expectations as it is a lowered bar compared with where the bar used to be positioned.
True. I haven't been playing long enough to notice a lot of quality issues or plastic differences. I usually just blame myself for a disc not flying correctly.
Very much so. The dedication of people in the industry, and those who play the sport, is going to keep pushing things forward. More companies will come out to increase the competition, and it will be interesting to see how things shake out. I am particularly intrigued to see how some of the newer companies (MVP, Legacy) set themselves apart from the big guys. Conversely, I am interested to see how the big companies respond to the little guys taking some of their niche business.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,856
To me, it's as simple as this:
When I buy a ____, I do so with the expectation that it will pretty much be just like the last ____ I threw.
IMO - due to their:
1) tweaking of molds while keeping the same name
2) numerous variations in plastic over time (sometimes better, sometimes worse)
3) more frequent than seldom inconsistency between runs (even when the above two issues don't appear to be a factor)
... not every Innova disc throws like the last version you threw in that mold/plastic/weight.
Innova has earned this reputation.
Perhaps it is because they are the biggest, that this sentiment and the bashing it inspires seems so prevalent. Innova puts more discs in more peoples hands, therefore, they will ellicit more responses (good and bad). The more people experience the inconsistencies I listed above, the more crap you're bound to hear.
That being said, there's still pleny of Innova love out there; just look at all the threads and sigs touting Innova staples like Tee-Birds, Rocs, Valks, Destroyers, Wraiths, Aviars...
Personally, my bag is all Discraft Mids and Putters, and leans quite a bit towards Innova for fairway and distance drivers. I just find Discraft's stuff performs more predictably for me, but for whatever reason, I just can't get as much D outta their drivers as I can Innova's, so that's how I stack my bag. :|
When I buy a ____, I do so with the expectation that it will pretty much be just like the last ____ I threw.
IMO - due to their:
1) tweaking of molds while keeping the same name
2) numerous variations in plastic over time (sometimes better, sometimes worse)
3) more frequent than seldom inconsistency between runs (even when the above two issues don't appear to be a factor)
... not every Innova disc throws like the last version you threw in that mold/plastic/weight.
Innova has earned this reputation.
Perhaps it is because they are the biggest, that this sentiment and the bashing it inspires seems so prevalent. Innova puts more discs in more peoples hands, therefore, they will ellicit more responses (good and bad). The more people experience the inconsistencies I listed above, the more crap you're bound to hear.
That being said, there's still pleny of Innova love out there; just look at all the threads and sigs touting Innova staples like Tee-Birds, Rocs, Valks, Destroyers, Wraiths, Aviars...
Personally, my bag is all Discraft Mids and Putters, and leans quite a bit towards Innova for fairway and distance drivers. I just find Discraft's stuff performs more predictably for me, but for whatever reason, I just can't get as much D outta their drivers as I can Innova's, so that's how I stack my bag. :|
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Uncle Dougie
Double Eagle Member
You still have much to learn, grassahoppah. Stick around awhile.
Innova (and others) are totally aware. Dollars are almost always the bottom line, however, with few exceptions. I don't think it's so much about high expectations as it is a lowered bar compared with where the bar used to be positioned.
If it don't make dollars it don't make sense.
Brick Forcepush
Eagle Member
i have always loved innova i dont see what the problem is.....
discmeister
Eagle Member
That is why American manufacturing is in decline and German manufacturing growing. They think long-term market share and quality. No one will deny there is a market for low cost goods but ignore quality at your own risk. Innova is active in the scene for one reason: Marketing. If their reputation continues to decline, they will be surpassed. I like many of their products but am looking for alternatives because I don't like having to scrutinize discs to ensure consistancy and durability.
Rizbee
Par Member
FYI, Innova has been the sponsor of the SoCal Series Championship since it's inception in 1996. Each year, added merch and cash from Innova goes into the prize pool for the season-ending tournament and for the series champions. If you've ever been to a SoCal end of the year banquet/tournament you have seen cash and prizes given out to the top points series finishers in each division. Innova also provides the SoCal membership discs at a steep discount to the club and has done so since day 1. Heck, for quite a few years Tim Selinske *was* SoCal, taking on most of the admin tasks of the org.
DGA doesn't sponsor the SoCal series - there actually isn't a sponsor for the entire series. DGA was the major sponsor for the Pro Spring Fling and Legacy has done a great job of sponsoring (and TD-ing) events this year, but so does Innova. The upcoming Challenge @ Goat Hill has received major merchandise support from Innova and DiscGolfValues (a partner company) is producing and selling fundraiser discs for the tournament.
USDGC, U.S. Masters, Japan Open, Asia Open, Taiwan Open are all organized by Innova. And hundreds of PDGA-sanctioned events around the country receive special event disc pricing and sizeable schwag packages as part of Innova's tournament support.
I agree with the school programs, or EDGE. I know they run/sposnsor that program I just havent heard alot about EDGE events or seen any press releases on disc golf in schools - except for a few Non Stop Disc Golf team demos at schools. Not trying to nit pick, but can you give any specific examples of Innova sponsored Ice Bowls, seems more like local club organized charity events with discs purchases from Innova through the CFR program rather than Innova "sponsoring" the event. And what courses have they put in. Just trying to educate myself, not arguing.
Innova has been the major sponsor of the Golden Sombrero Series of Ice Bowls held in SoCal for the last four years. They provide custom-stamped discs to the TD's at low prices that enable us to donate thousands of dollars to charities. Along with the discs, they provide us with ample free merchandise to use as prizes or raffle items, which raise more $$$ for the charities.
Courses: Innova has been the main supporters of keeping the Wrightwood and Yucaipa courses in operation. Their work with San Bernadino County Parks resulted in courses at Prado and Glen Helen. They were also major sponsors of the course at Cal State San Marcos, where they donated 9 of the 18 baskets (in memory of Tim S.).
You asked for some education and mentioned SoCal - there ya go. Thanks for asking the questions!
Rizbee
Par Member
I'll chime in a bit about discs also. Ever since we started throwing flying discs competitively, there have been complaints and discussions about variation in discs of the same model. In the 60's and 70's Wham-O had several different molds that they used for the Professional model Frisbee. #1 molds flew differently than #10's and #15's, and white plastic flew different than black or maroon or turquoise. For MTA and TRC, the Fastback model was the best disc to use, but everyone wanted FB3 or FB6 molds - FB10's, FB23's were junk. I could go on through disc history, but I'll spare you.
I don't find it too surprising that there are variations in discs that come out of production. The plastic blends that are available from suppliers constantly change. And it's not surprising that the chemicals that provide color, or glow ability interact with the plastic to affect the way it cools and dries. Molds receive damage and wear during use and need to be re-tooled. All the manufacturers deal with this. And all have variations in their product. I think one reason why people think they see it more with Innova is that they make *so many* discs that the same model will be run with slightly different batches of plastic and under slightly different environmental conditions over the course of many weeks and months. Just a theory.
Why do I throw all Innova? Because they make discs I can throw well. As I've gotten older my arm speed has slowed, so lighter discs and understable models fly farther for me and keep me competitive. No other manufacturer has as many understable molds as Innova. And no other company makes as many discs in the lower weights as Innova. Here's part of my bag: 157 Star Archon, 162 Champ Wraith, 159 Champ Beast, 150 Champ Sidewinder, 155 Champ Valk, 150 CE Leopard, 154 Champ Gazelle, 150 Champ San Marino Roc, 162 Star Rancho Roc. And that's without the Blizzard discs I have added. There's no other company that makes a comparable product.
I don't find it too surprising that there are variations in discs that come out of production. The plastic blends that are available from suppliers constantly change. And it's not surprising that the chemicals that provide color, or glow ability interact with the plastic to affect the way it cools and dries. Molds receive damage and wear during use and need to be re-tooled. All the manufacturers deal with this. And all have variations in their product. I think one reason why people think they see it more with Innova is that they make *so many* discs that the same model will be run with slightly different batches of plastic and under slightly different environmental conditions over the course of many weeks and months. Just a theory.
Why do I throw all Innova? Because they make discs I can throw well. As I've gotten older my arm speed has slowed, so lighter discs and understable models fly farther for me and keep me competitive. No other manufacturer has as many understable molds as Innova. And no other company makes as many discs in the lower weights as Innova. Here's part of my bag: 157 Star Archon, 162 Champ Wraith, 159 Champ Beast, 150 Champ Sidewinder, 155 Champ Valk, 150 CE Leopard, 154 Champ Gazelle, 150 Champ San Marino Roc, 162 Star Rancho Roc. And that's without the Blizzard discs I have added. There's no other company that makes a comparable product.
the_pwnerator
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 187
American manufacturing output isn't in decline. It's manufacturing employment that is in decline: we've gotten better and better at producing more stuff with fewer people:
I use a lot of Innova but they have cost me so much money for being inconsistent. Just because you buy a Valk doesn't mean you are buying a valk.. That right there just doesn't make sense. If they weren't money hungry they would fix this problem or allow you to test the disc out before you buy it(as a requirement).
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