[Innova] INNOVA Naming mistakes/mold change without a name change

[gkeberhart]

I am with Three Putt and garublador, the old mold beast IMO was/is better than the new Beast and Orc. People always say that the Orc is easy distance but the Old Mold Beast was much easier distance. It was effortlessly straight and long; that being said from a commercial stand point retooling the beast was a more economically sound decision. in business money talks

 

[Frank Delicious]

oh, look, everyone confirmed I was right.

*smug as hell look*

 

[Three Putt]

I suppose I understand that the Orc outsold the Beast so it made more sense to keep it around, but I think their lineup would be better had they done it my way.

The Orc was probably outselling the Beast at that point, but the Beast was a few years old at that point and the Orc was the Soup of the Day. You would think a company like Innova would have understood that someday neither of these discs would be the newest/fastest/longest/bestest driver and make a decision based on what was the best disc. IMO that disc was the old mold Beast. So I see what you are saying, but I'm not as understanding of the decision. I just think they got it wrong.

 

[DSmith]

and guess which version of the Beast Barry throws.......

 

[DSmith]

Also as far as the Roc molds being confusing, it's stamped on the bottom of the disc what mold it is. :doh:

Hmmm what else....

Wraiths;
They were retooled then retooled back when the Champ version was released due to differences in stability between the plastics.
This also coincided with the Teerex retooling (broken mold). So in order to get 2 completely different molds they tweaked the molds for a few pressings which is where the Wraith X and Teerex X molds came from.
Teerex;
The first Teerex retooling flew too similar to the Wraith at the time. (this is the mold that about killed the Teerex) So they made the Teerex X (which also flew nothing like the original) The first pressing of the DX Teerex's were the X Mold and these were actually money but are the hardest to find now as they were Tournament stamped. After that they pretty much sucked.
As far as I know they got the current mold back to what the First/Proto mold was but by the time they did this it was too little too late due to the Destroyer coming out.

So to add to your list
Wraith X's
Teerex X's

 

[PanicKJ]

The 11x is the beefier Firebird mold. It just has to do with the plastic, the way it cools and sets primarily. Dave Dunipace has said recently in the "Ask Dave Dunipace" thread on the PDGA boards that the current runs of Firebirds are back to being a lot beefier and flatter more similar to the 11x, due to a better run of plastic. He is unsure, however, of when they will be making it to various retailers, so there may be future issues of distinguishing between the new beefier and less beefy Firebirds.

I picked up a Super Flat 12x firebird at the usdgc pro shop. If I put it side be side with my 11x you can not tell a differance. It was pearly blue and slightly gummy and I only had to pay 13 bucks!

Also with the Rhyno's
There are
Rancho's
San Marino's
and Ontario's

Don't really know what the differance is, but I have seen all three.

 

[elnino]

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- so this has several molds, tooling all the same but mold different X is current mold.
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno Rancho's, San Marino's, and Ontario's but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic maybe Dx no beads too.
Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths
The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

 

[elnino]

I'm trying to get good info here. I'm working on figuring out Rocs first and then i'll tackle the beast questions and try to find out teebirds too.

thanks everyone for the input.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths.

Don't assume, it's not good.

 

[DSmith]

Classic Rocs were the first "Roc"

Totally different mold than the "Roc"

Don't understand why they used the "Classic" moniker when they could have just come up with a different name for what became the Roc.

There's also Classic Cobra (The Ontario mold) and the Classic Aviar or Brick Aviar(has the bead on the rim).

As far as Rocs go the difference is the stability out of the box.
From most stable to least;
Rancho-San Marino-Ontario

The abridged history was that the first mold was pressed at their San Marino plant. That mold broke or something similar. As an attempt to recreate the mold at their New Ontario plant the Ontario Rocs were born (less stable than the original). In order to fix it once again, at the Rancho Cucamonga plant they made the disc more stable. Until recently there was no more "San Marino" mold as it was broken until they did another retooling which became a "Neo-San Marino" mold.
I believe most of that story is correct. I'm sure a Roc purest will jump on here and correct me.
Also I'm not really sure about any retooling on the KC Pro's. I think any differences are mainly plastic types which accounts for slight variations between Kenny's World's wins (9x,10x,11x,12x) As far as I have seen the 12x's are a bit domier which makes them a touch less straight than 11x's.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Also instead of a random post with no formatting to it, this should be on a website or a doc somewhere.

 

[DSmith]

Don't assume, it's not good.

Augusta and Highbridge Wraiths are not Wraith X's. They are just 1st run Champ Wraiths before the tweaking for the production run (another reason they go for so much on ebay etc.). I think the Wraith X's were mostly test runs I don't remember them being used for CFR's except the DGV west coast tournaments. This was about the time a bunch of us raised a stink about test runs only being available for CFR to Innova West and those that had to order through Innova East got the shaft and had to wait a month or 2 on new releases.
Of course now we can order from either. :thmbup:

 

[bdodson]

Monster x - Champion (new monsters)
Monster L - star plastic
Monster - old pearly champion plastic, stability between the L and X mold

 

[agent_peebody]

^i have a pearly X and a pearl L.

 

[DSmith]

Monsters

I'm probably the only one who still throws them.

Pro Line was the first mold then Champion. Both were the "Pearly Plastic".
Pro Line was their first run at Champion plastic after CE plastic. The pearlyness came from a weight additive to make up for mass to get the discs up to weight in that plastic. Which is why they are grippier. That and I'm sure Innova thought they looked cool. All of the Champion plastic during this time was either in this plastic or the gummy non pearl plastic. (@2003-2005)

Not sure but I think both the Pro Line and the Champion Line were the same mold. Then for some oddball reasoning Innova decided to retool it to make it less HSS in order to give it more distance (@2007?). Maybe they thought it would increase sales. After alot of bitching about the new "L" mold they went back to pressing it in the current or old "X" mold.

Of course its in the current champ plastic which just ain't as good as the Pearly stuff.

 

[DSmith]

Also instead of a random post with no formatting to it, this should be on a website or a doc somewhere.

Or just sticky the thread.

 

[Three Putt]

Classic Rocs were the first "Roc"

Totally different mold than the "Roc"

Don't understand why they used the "Classic" moniker when they could have just come up with a different name for what became the Roc.

There's also Classic Cobra (The Ontario mold) and the Classic Aviar or Brick Aviar(has the bead on the rim).

As far as Rocs go the difference is the stability out of the box.
From most stable to least;
Rancho-San Marino-Ontario

The abridged history was that the first mold was pressed at their San Marino plant. That mold broke or something similar. As an attempt to recreate the mold at their New Ontario plant the Ontario Rocs were born (less stable than the original). In order to fix it once again, at the Rancho Cucamonga plant they made the disc more stable. Until recently there was no more "San Marino" mold as it was broken until they did another retooling which became a "Neo-San Marino" mold.
I believe most of that story is correct. I'm sure a Roc purest will jump on here and correct me.
Also I'm not really sure about any retooling on the KC Pro's. I think any differences are mainly plastic types which accounts for slight variations between Kenny's World's wins (9x,10x,11x,12x) As far as I have seen the 12x's are a bit domier which makes them a touch less straight than 11x's.

There is a lot of information in this post that is just wrong.

The Classic Cobra came out in '95-'96 when the Ontario mold was the Cobra. The Classic Cobra was the original Cobra mold that used the Stingray top and had San Marino tooling. The disc that was the Classic Cobra is just the Cobra again as they have stopped using the Ontario mold and gone back to the original mold. The Ontario mold was never the Classic Cobra.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the Classic Aviars. There are still Aviars with a bead. Classic Aviars are just whatever they put the old grid stamp on; I've seen small bead and beadless Classic Aviars.

There was no San Marino Innova plant; they outsourced the injection molding in the early days. They had a P. O. Box in San Marino, that was about it. The first Innova plant was the Ontario plant.

Probably because they outsourced and had no real control over the conditions their molds were used in, a lot of the early Innova molds wore out. The San Marino Roc mold was never broken, it just wore out and started making deformed, unusable discs.

I'm pretty sure if we keep going with this stuff we will come up with a lot more information that is just plain old wrong.

 

[bdodson]

My next post was going to be about GUMMY plastic which DSMITH mentioned. The GUMMY discs, which i believe you are correct DSMITH about them being from 2003-2005. I am not sure they will qualify as different molds but the plastic is frickin sweet. My dad threw a gummy beast for a long time and I prefer gummy monsters to champ and star and the old pro line/pearly stuff. The pro line flies most similar to the GUMMY but it gets beat up where the GUMMY is indestructible.

To the best of my knowledge the following 2003-2005 molds could be found in gummy plastic:

Monster
Beast
Valkyrie
Leopard
150 Class Teebird
Viking
Orc (very light weights)
Spiders
Arcangels
150 class sidewinder
Rhyno.

Obviously they put out some gummy rocs and katanas since then and the XG (extra grippy) bosses are close, but not the same.

Many people think the soft pearly runs of discs are gummy, and i would disagree


DSMITH: i obviously still throw the monster and would love to find more gummy plastic

 

[Frank Delicious]

I'm pretty sure if we keep going with this stuff we will come up with a lot more information that is just plain old wrong.

This is so true.

 

[Technohic]

This thread doesnt make any sense to me at all. Theres a lot of conflicting info being put off as fact.

I think I will just live with discs as they are now and updated flight charts. Not like you can go back and change anything anyway.