Mounting Frustration and the Journey to hit 400 consistently and beyond

[hothead43]

Hi everyone, I’m in a huge rut with my game. Lately I’ve been playing smart golf and my scores have vastly improved this summer. Before this summer, my best scores were in the 2-5 down range, and now I’ve got a taste of double digits and it feels amazing.

But, I still can’t add any distance to my max drives, and it’s driving me up a wall. I do field work 1-3 times a week, and I’ve done this for 3 months. I’ve tried countless tweaks to my form after reading threads here, and watching many videos, but I still can’t get to 400 consistent. some field work days, I’m barely scraping it, other days I’m blowing by even 415 and nearly reaching 450, but those feel like miracle throws where my timing is better than average.

Common areas that I see myself struggling on video:

1. Shoulders still somehow rocket forward to meet the power of my hip turn, thus negating all effort there. I’m not really sure how to fix this at this point. This often leads to me ‘hugging” myself, as you’ll see in my videos.

2. The power pocket is none existent. I’ve always been confused on if it’s a direct movement into the pocket, or that your hip turn is what makes the disc come into the chest. I’ve tried not pulling at all with a loose arm, and it’s adds accuracy, but still no power pocket.

3. Release angle. I’m either throwing 5 feet off the ground or into the sky when I’m giving max effort. I may still be doing nose up, but I really really focus on ‘pouring the coffee’

https://youtu.be/8hmHlLY9eqE

https://youtu.be/hbgXuf24oDc

Please be as honest and direct as possible. I’m a tall, athletic young guy with no injuries or restrictions, and I know that I have the strength in my legs and torso to get these discs well beyond 400. I need this for my sanity. Thanks guys!

 

[hothead43]

Addendum: I realize now that these throws are really poor examples, but that might be what I need. I can see that my Xstep foot is turned backwards, and that my reach back is early. Is that what it's screwing with my power pocket and the hugging thing? Please help me dig deep into this!

 

[navel]

You really need to step back and stop focusing on the details. There is quite a few tells of an athletic form in your throw, but it's heavily buried beneath some really bad rounding. Your arm is collapsing and being dragged along across your body. If your chest wasn't pushing your throwing arm forward late in the motion the arm wouldn't ever be slinged forward. Do you see what I'm saying?

You need to get your elbow OUT as far away as possible from your torso. Try throwing something heavy for a while. You want the same feeling as an olympic hammer throw. Your arm should be pulled taut out from your torso and you'll need your whole body holding back against that force wanting to eject out from your center of gravity.

Makeshift drill for getting your elbow out from your body:
*Position yourself in your ordinary athletic stand still stance.
*Put your arms straight out as far away from your body as possible.
*Put your trailing hand in the arm fold of your throwing arm.
*Now make a rhythmic and fluid motion where you try to hammer out your throwing arm from the elbow out. (Like if there was a wall directly to your right of your right shoulder that you want to hammer your hand into.) Slow and relaxed. Let the lower arm fold in towards your trailing arm fold and then back out to the position straight out from your body. Feel the heaviness. Feel the resistance in towards your center of gravity. Realize that your lead shoulder isn't moving much at all. It basically acts as the center of a wheel, spinning your arm around it. When you've done this drill for a while you can let go of your arm fold and try to keep the same motion going. Focus on being relaxed and not forcing any motion from your elbow out. Your whole lower arm should be relaxed. Feel the heaviness and resistance without anything holding your arm and elbow in position. Think long and hard about this feeling and how you'll need to copy it for your throw.
*Now try throwing slow and relaxed with the same feeling as in the drill. You want your elbow to feel heavy out from your body.

 

[sidewinder22]

Both your shoulders/arms are collapsed/retracted and dragging behind your body. Note how Steve's arm/shoulder are pulled taut and extended like the top of a wide bench press or push up and core muscles abs/lats engaged to hit thru the disc/wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[hothead43]

So when it comes to getting that elbow out and the shoulders engaged forward, is that an active movement? Should I be trying to get my elbow out through my throw? I'm definitely scared of muscling my shots. Thanks for the advice! Y'all are some heroes

 

[navel]

So when it comes to getting that elbow out and the shoulders engaged forward, is that an active movement? Should I be trying to get my elbow out through my throw? I'm definitely scared of muscling my shots. Thanks for the advice! Y'all are some heroes

You are correct that you shouldn't muscle the shot. When an olympic hammer thrower's arm is pulled taut it isn't because he's trying to get the arms out as far as possible from the torso. It's because there is a force from the hammer pulling out from the body. He's only resisting that force.

You'll need to position yourself in a way that the arm-elbow-disc is being pulled out away from your body. Did you try the drill that I mentioned?

Can you see the forces in action in the gif above? The elbow isn't forced out. It's being resisted. If the shoulder socket would suddenly disappear the arm would fly out straight away from the torso or center of mass. You'll feel these forces if you swing something heavy. Try it.

 

[hothead43]

Haven't been able to get out to the field today, but later this evening I plan on hiking a hammer out there with me. I'll report back, thanks again!

 

[hothead43]

Well, long story short, I couldn't figure it out. I took the hammer with me, gave it a dozen tosses, feeling the resistance, and yet still my form feels and looks the exact same. Even on some of my hammer throws, my shoulder collapses a bit. I have slo-mo footage of about 100 standstill throws, and I couldn't barely do it correctly even once. Quite the frustrating hour of field work. I understand the concept well, but I can't for the life of me implant it. Even trying to make my shoulder as rigid and locked as possible, flexing every bit of delt I have (which I know isn't good), my arm still collapses against my body. Is it a timing issue of the upper body that's causing this rounding? Any further advice?

 

[hothead43]

Also, should I just reach back wider? I've always felt that my reach back has been too narrow.

 

[lostDoughnut]

Also, should I just reach back wider? I've always felt that my reach back has been too narrow.

i believe so. i reached back like you did because i saw pros do that. see example below

https://imgur.com/FD0LoMP

yet. when i did that. this is what occurred

https://imgur.com/1qSmk6u

picture of the issue from video above

https://imgur.com/1hauMRE
(red shows where my arm should be but i didnt know that during that time until i saw the video)

(basically i was rounding. yes the disc went far during that one throw, but i couldn't do that 20/20 throws)

what i did to be able to alleviate that was while practicing standstills i put a disc on the ground that told me where my arm needed to go. it took 2 days to get used to and finally the levers started to work.

 

[lostDoughnut]

more info

i have seen top down views of ezra aderhold and he has a good angle with his upper arm to chest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQIzQcY05nE&t=122s

top down view of eric oakly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lg9JzxagDk&t=73s

however i think he has had tons of practice to be able to support that angle. where as for myself my upper arm hasnt built up that muscle memory to be able to support the angle that he does. for myself my upper arm angle needs to be alot wider. what i learned is i needed to experiment with the angles (yet keep the rule of >90 degrees) to find out what worked for myself vs trying to mimic what others did



i had seen the seabass post about hugging yourself

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3163272

and i thought to myself. well when i reach back like the pros my upper arm angle is > 120. but i hadnt had enough practice to support it

 

[lostDoughnut]

another quote

https://imgur.com/lm6oEwR

above is a picture of you hugging yourself/rounding

the best thing to learn these improvements is standstills. to try and relearn movement while doing a walkup i found for myself was too hard of a task for the brain to learn. yes it will learn eventually. but the learning process i experienced from standstills was exponentially easier/faster

 

[sidewinder22]

You are trying to drive too late off the rear foot pushing/extending your right shoulder up on your forward swing, instead of driving off rear foot earlier in stride and dropping down lower into the plant and shoulder dropping swinging down lower forward pulled by your CoG dropping forward.

Get a bigger/heavier sledgehammer. You need to feel something heavy enough to be pulling you off balance.

 

[navel]

All the above SW-drills are good for this issue.

This is good way to think about where you want the direction of force, or the feeling for the throw. Using the same Ezra vid that you talked about.

Try this:
Imagine that you are holding on to a big spoon in your right hand and stirring counter clock-wise following the edges of a huuuge cauldron in front of you. Slow and steady. Round and round.
Now do this motion and rotate the upper body back a bit with while stirring back at the same time, so that you get in a reach back. Now just stir and rotate through to the hit.
You should find the feeling this way. If not, try again and focus on being slow and doing overexaggerated movements until you feel the acceleration and heaviness.
See if you can find the same feeling while toning down the stirring and relaxing and by letting the body rotate automatically by the weight shift. Try a bigger cauldron as well. Try slower movements, different timing and chest up in the hit until you find something that's easy and powerful.
If I am correct this is pretty close to the way the disc should travel into and out from the chest, but in the long run it shouldn't be as forced as in this drill.
This also works great together with SW's 8-figure-drill.

 

[hothead43]

You are trying to drive too late off the rear foot pushing/extending your right shoulder up on your forward swing, instead of driving off rear foot earlier in stride and dropping down lower into the plant and shoulder dropping swinging down lower forward pulled by your CoG dropping forward.

I've always felt like the power I can generate with my lower body is good, and I think that's what has allowed me to still throw decently far despite my jank upper body. Are you saying here that it is a matter of WHEN that force is applied, and I need to do it earlier? This probably isn't the sole issue, but do you think that is contributing to my shoulder collapse?

Haven't been able to touch the field yet today, but I did do the doorframe drill. I totally feel the power when I sink into it, and I'm excited to see how lowering my CoG forward rather than raising it will change the feel.

Do you all recommend the Beto drill? I feel like that might help me build the muscle memory if the disc shooting out from the pocket.

 

[hothead43]

Hey everyone! Actually felt like I had some form of progress today. Beto drill and reaching wide helped with the rounding, but I started reverting back to old habits as soon as I started speeding up my X step.

Can't really feel the sensation of the door frame drill while trying to replicate in a throw, but I did start falling into my last rather than reaching. I know I need to start my reach back later, as it's really early, but I'm
Okay with that for now. I know rounding is my main issue.

For some reason YouTube is negating the slo mo footage from my phone, so I apologize for that. .25x play back speed makes it slow.

https://youtu.be/y5gP90IHMrY - Beto Drill attempt, felt weird but looks correct I think.

https://youtu.be/N0blFl0JR2g - a faster x step then
What I probably should be doing at this stage, but it
Looks better than my full power janky rips from earlier this week.

Feed me more! I'm excited

 

[sidewinder22]

Right arm looks much better!

Left arm not so much.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523

Footwork/balance leaves much to be desired.