Brychanus
* Ace Member *
What is this thread about?
For a little while now and after @timothy42b's thread on "Big Questions after Fundamentals Of", I've been learning from multiple people and comparing and contrasting models for form. Some of this has abused my body, but I have learned something from every "experiment." I am nearing the end of the abuses I'm willing to put myself through as I approach 40 slowly but surely and settle into my "good swing/throw" phase of development. But I remain more interested than ever in the bigger picture, so here we go.
I've had several private conversations with many people who I am pleased have passed through this forum in one way or another. Many of them have specific interests and either primary or secondary jobs coaching people. Naturally, as the "coaching" space becomes more visible and saturated, it is bursting at the seams with strong opinions, controversies, big personalities, and all the predictable things that come with a field coming out of its fledging stage and evolving into something bigger.
There's this somewhat interesting concept that people call "good form." For my personal taste and form development philosophy, I usually seek actions that optimize power, efficiency, and safety in roughly equal proportions. That was one philosophy throughout "The Good Swing."
While swing theory encapsulates numerous interesting things and I remain convinced it has a wide domain of use, we throw discs. I have become aware that there are some principles to throwing that do not simultaneously optimize all three dimensions, and there is likely significant variability from player to player along these dimensions. As most athletes know, sometimes, aspects of athletic development put these dimensions at odds with one another. We obviously cannot observe all of that without significant evidence and data.
At this point I have experimented with and discussed data and developing player moves that "asymmetrically" load on power, efficiency, and safety dimensions. They exist. How each of them interact with each player is a much more complicated question. Doesn't mean we can't get started.
Thread Mantras:
-Avoid "it works for me, and therefore thee!"
-Avoid "it does not work for me, and therefore not for thee!"
-Avoid "I understand the One True Form^TM!"
-Avoid "It is inconsistent with my prior beliefs, and therefore it is wrong."
-Do be kind and keep an open mind, as long as your brains don't fall out.
-Do consider data, outside sources, and disc golf-specific or cross-sports concepts.
-Of course, always remember: "When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack." -The Sphinx (sorry, I just needed to say "hammer" somewhere).
I'm not a moderator but I started the thread and I request that Rapoport's Rules apply.* Please just discuss (and compare and contrast) mechanics, actions, concepts, and silly memes and I'll do my best to return it in kind. If you are getting hot about something before you type it, I kindly request that you please step away first and decide whether you should type anything at all. On the other hand, I know this is the Internet and DGCR, so if it happens I'll do my best to just kindly look past any outbursts and discuss the mechanics again. I have been getting a lot of practice recently, but let me know if I'm stepping out of line, too.
Thanks & have fun.
FWIW, what has helped my throwing is @sidewinder22 of course, and also a lot of experiments, frustrations and failures, grit, some "luck," a high degree of openness to experience, and willingness to toss out anything that wasn't working as often as needed. Work on my body and work on my mind. Forgiveness. Patience. Kindness. I am perhaps rare in that I care more about learning mechanics than anything else (and certainly more than putting). I've been willing to watch my drives waver between pretty good to awful over and over while trying on different form "fits" and seeing what I liked. My journey is ongoing and I am sure I'll just keep learning more.
Leading by example in comparing and contrasting two extremes, I'm going to start us off right here.
I will talk more about the swing-pull continuum later, but attempted to attack this old problem from a foundational balance, posture, and sequencing perspective.
*You can say this, but consider whether you can say it nicer than Han.
For a little while now and after @timothy42b's thread on "Big Questions after Fundamentals Of", I've been learning from multiple people and comparing and contrasting models for form. Some of this has abused my body, but I have learned something from every "experiment." I am nearing the end of the abuses I'm willing to put myself through as I approach 40 slowly but surely and settle into my "good swing/throw" phase of development. But I remain more interested than ever in the bigger picture, so here we go.
I've had several private conversations with many people who I am pleased have passed through this forum in one way or another. Many of them have specific interests and either primary or secondary jobs coaching people. Naturally, as the "coaching" space becomes more visible and saturated, it is bursting at the seams with strong opinions, controversies, big personalities, and all the predictable things that come with a field coming out of its fledging stage and evolving into something bigger.
There's this somewhat interesting concept that people call "good form." For my personal taste and form development philosophy, I usually seek actions that optimize power, efficiency, and safety in roughly equal proportions. That was one philosophy throughout "The Good Swing."
While swing theory encapsulates numerous interesting things and I remain convinced it has a wide domain of use, we throw discs. I have become aware that there are some principles to throwing that do not simultaneously optimize all three dimensions, and there is likely significant variability from player to player along these dimensions. As most athletes know, sometimes, aspects of athletic development put these dimensions at odds with one another. We obviously cannot observe all of that without significant evidence and data.
At this point I have experimented with and discussed data and developing player moves that "asymmetrically" load on power, efficiency, and safety dimensions. They exist. How each of them interact with each player is a much more complicated question. Doesn't mean we can't get started.
Thread Mantras:
-Avoid "it works for me, and therefore thee!"
-Avoid "it does not work for me, and therefore not for thee!"
-Avoid "I understand the One True Form^TM!"
-Avoid "It is inconsistent with my prior beliefs, and therefore it is wrong."
-Do be kind and keep an open mind, as long as your brains don't fall out.
-Do consider data, outside sources, and disc golf-specific or cross-sports concepts.
-Of course, always remember: "When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack." -The Sphinx (sorry, I just needed to say "hammer" somewhere).
I'm not a moderator but I started the thread and I request that Rapoport's Rules apply.* Please just discuss (and compare and contrast) mechanics, actions, concepts, and silly memes and I'll do my best to return it in kind. If you are getting hot about something before you type it, I kindly request that you please step away first and decide whether you should type anything at all. On the other hand, I know this is the Internet and DGCR, so if it happens I'll do my best to just kindly look past any outbursts and discuss the mechanics again. I have been getting a lot of practice recently, but let me know if I'm stepping out of line, too.
Thanks & have fun.
Thanks Timothy, I'm learning from you all the time.Somewhat like Brychanus, my brain dives into weeds obsessively. Unlike him, that doesn't help my throw. But it's the way I'm wired. And sometimes I type too many words.
My first thought on seeing the Jaani video was wondering whether this falls into the deliberate vs associated category. Is it something we should do purposefully? vs something that should happen if we do something else correctly. I'm not distinguishing between consciously and unconsciously. A large number of motions are done consciously and then eventually become habitual. Deliberate elements are different from associated ones, and sometimes it's dangerous to force something deliberately that should just be happening, or that needs a specific precursor to happen.
That was also my reaction to Josh's recent "don't release" thread - do we let the disc rip? vs do we ensure the disc rips. And I think it applies - maybe - to some of the Chris Taylor shoulder adduction scap retraction stuff. At least it is a question we should ask.
A complication is if there are some distinctly different swing patterns, like there apparently are in ball golf, where something needs to be deliberate in one pattern and automatic in another.
(off topic but of interest to nerds - there's an old study by physicists at one of the British universities that described two distinct ball golf swing patterns. I haven't been able to find it but Homer Kelley describes it as hitting (axe handle) vs swinging (rope pull). I have his book but there are no references. Today I found there is a biography of him that talks about his journey, and I need to read that.)
FWIW, what has helped my throwing is @sidewinder22 of course, and also a lot of experiments, frustrations and failures, grit, some "luck," a high degree of openness to experience, and willingness to toss out anything that wasn't working as often as needed. Work on my body and work on my mind. Forgiveness. Patience. Kindness. I am perhaps rare in that I care more about learning mechanics than anything else (and certainly more than putting). I've been willing to watch my drives waver between pretty good to awful over and over while trying on different form "fits" and seeing what I liked. My journey is ongoing and I am sure I'll just keep learning more.
my current opinion is that if you are of the "pelvis is an anchor" camp where your only thought is to stop your forward momentum and keep your center of mass as far behind your plant foot as possible before swinging your arm you're going to probably recruit thighmaster muscles naturally as a result of trying to stop better. The toe touch seems to me like a result of a better/earlier brace keeping you closed for longer.
I see two at the moment (though on a spectrum). The best example is the feeling of the hand and when it is active/passive.
Swingy boys and girls (aka out/in/out or wide rail):
Hand is brought in to the chest passively but if you don't add some speed/effort/acceleration to the hand out of the pocket it comes out early and feels soooooo weak.
Pullers:
Hand is moved forward down the "line" actively and there is no need to focus on an "out" because the late move of the hand to the front of the disc is automatic as you move down the line. Any intentional move "out" here results in an early/weak release.
FWIW: both styles are taught and accepted by various parts of the dg community.
FWIW2: I personally have felt the differences in both and the swing I can do up to about 65mph while I can do the pull up to about 68mph. Certainly not the fastest numbers in the world but I would imagine it would lend some credibility to the feel distinction; especially given my stature and body "type" lol."
Leading by example in comparing and contrasting two extremes, I'm going to start us off right here.
I will talk more about the swing-pull continuum later, but attempted to attack this old problem from a foundational balance, posture, and sequencing perspective.
*You can say this, but consider whether you can say it nicer than Han.