"NAGS" Zone

[DigIt]

Thanks. You copied my original post so fast I couldn't finish the edits!

I got you covered, brah.

 

[garublador1]

There's no such thing as "working with the manufacturers." Which one do you choose without lawsuit? And there are too many to create a team. It's a capitalistic environment in a relatively small market. There's more than enough flexibility in the current specs to improve the baskets. But that involves cost to all of the manufacturers with not a great payoff. The contest idea has been discussed a few times over the years but other issues have had higher priority. Manufacturers would not be too keen on losing their existing design features and tooling if forced into a specific future model.

Players have indicated their love for chains but I doubt the ideal basket that solves the current problems would necessarily include them. I believe if a better basket could be made, it would have been done by now. But any entrepreneur looking at the DG landscape and how difficult it has been to get the funds for current baskets would calcualte that the potential market is not large enough to produce sufficient payoff for that level of innovation and financial commitment. It might take years to overturn the existing standards where there would be great resistence in changing them quickly if ever.

Don't think the idea hasn't crossed many minds in the manufacturer and DG mover and shaker world. But figuring out how to pull it off is the devil in the details.

The computer, music and movie industries have all had no problems coming up with new standards. USB was developed by seven different companies all working together. HDMI is the same way. Sony worked with two other companies to come up with Blu-Ray. There are dozens of other standards that came about from collaborations of various companies. Is it really hard to find one to use as a model for a tech standards group for disc golf? The industry is one of the most successful industries to come out of the 20th century so they must have been doing something right. Saying that you can't work with manufacturers just shows how bad of a job the PDGA is really doing. It's very obvious that it's possible. It's just that they aren't smart enough to do it.

Either way, all of the arguments you're making are pointing to the idea that the PDGA does not want to make new standards. If you actually read my posts and understand them you'd see that that's a perfectly intelligent option as long as you don't make up a bunch of stupid rules to make up for areas in which the tech standards lack. If it's a problem, fix the problem. If it's not then work arounds are unecessary. What's so hard to figure out about that?

"The devil in the details" is corporate speak for "we're too lazy or dumb to figure it out." The most successful companies of the last 50 years have all figured out the details. How many times do you think people told Steve Jobs that they couldn't do something because of "the devil in the details" and didn't end up cleaning out their desk within 5 minutes?

 

[Working Stiff]

Working Stiff - Are the courses just tight, or are they significantly shorter as well?

Definitely not shorter, at least the ones Open will play. But I think the pros are referring to the bends and doglegs on the wooded holes that don't allow them to throw longer and thus they are "old man" holes.

So basically some players like NAGS zones because they want to just "bomb's away" at stuff, and others want challenging placement over pure distance. So are you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, or do you think there is a balance that can make most happy (or everybody mad, which can be the same thing.)

 

[Cgkdisc]

@ garublador
The bottom line is that no one who could do something about it feels it's worth the effort apparently based on their analysis. Otherwise, someone would have done something already. It's not a failing of the PDGA or the manufacturers. In fact, they all see themselves as trying to prioritize and make the correct decisions by doing other activities primarily for financial reasons.
Example: Innova changing the format of the USDGC primarily for financial reasons.
Example: PDGA not eliminating payout for amateurs and going all player packs and trophy only - for financial reasons to keep members happy

Some couch-riding critics deride these choices as not good for the sport. But then they don't suffer the consequences of poor decisions. I'm one of the people who have thought about a design contest and could do something about it. But I've got other things to work on of greater interest. There's nothing magic about doing it. If you think the basket idea is worth pursuing, there are more fingers pointing at you when you point your finger at others.

 

[kscustom]

There's no such thing as "working with the manufacturers." Which one do you choose without lawsuit? And there are too many to create a team. It's a capitalistic environment in a relatively small market. There's more than enough flexibility in the current specs to improve the baskets. But that involves cost to all of the manufacturers with not a great payoff. The contest idea has been discussed a few times over the years but other issues have had higher priority. Manufacturers would not be too keen on losing their existing design features and tooling if forced into a specific future model.

Players have indicated their love for chains but I doubt the ideal basket that solves the current problems would necessarily include them. I believe if a better basket could be made, it would have been done by now. But any entrepreneur looking at the DG landscape and how difficult it has been to get the funds for current baskets would calcualte that the potential market is not large enough to produce sufficient payoff for that level of innovation and financial commitment. It might take years to overturn the existing standards where there would be great resistence in changing them quickly if ever.

Don't think the idea hasn't crossed many minds in the manufacturer and DG mover and shaker world. But figuring out how to pull it off is the devil in the details.

The computer, music and movie industries have all had no problems coming up with new standards. USB was developed by seven different companies all working together. HDMI is the same way. Sony worked with two other companies to come up with Blu-Ray. There are dozens of other standards that came about from collaborations of various companies. Is it really hard to find one to use as a model for a tech standards group for disc golf? The industry is one of the most successful industries to come out of the 20th century so they must have been doing something right. Saying that you can't work with manufacturers just shows how bad of a job the PDGA is really doing. It's very obvious that it's possible. It's just that they aren't smart enough to do it.

Either way, all of the arguments you're making are pointing to the idea that the PDGA does not want to make new standards. If you actually read my posts and understand them you'd see that that's a perfectly intelligent option as long as you don't make up a bunch of stupid rules to make up for areas in which the tech standards lack. If it's a problem, fix the problem. If it's not then work arounds are unecessary. What's so hard to figure out about that?

"The devil in the details" is corporate speak for "we're too lazy or dumb to figure it out." The most successful companies of the last 50 years have all figured out the details. How many times do you think people told Steve Jobs that they couldn't do something because of "the devil in the details" and didn't end up cleaning out their desk within 5 minutes?

If you feel so negatively about the Pdga then run to be put on the board. Become a state coordinator get involved otherwise you are blowing smoke and not really trying to fix what you see as issues.
Chucks right if I spend 4-5 g's on a new course this summer and the baskets change in the fall it's going to be awhile till I could change them out, If ever. And I am talking about me myself spending the money to put in a course. We have homemade baskets becuase our town is quite small and a local company makes em for us. You complain about standard baskets you should come to norton KS and see how you like ours. They a little shorter from basket to top and our chains are 2x as heavy. The worst part is I want to run a sanctioned event and can't. So I might come with money to replace our baskets with new ones. Doing something for the sport at the local level.

Heavier chains create more soft putts to spit. That would be a cheaper alterintive to a new design entirely.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Do you know that your baskets would fail a PDGA spec if submitted? Otherwise, you can submit a basket for testing and approval for $350 and your baskets and course would become PDGA legal.

 

[kscustom]

Ya I know I can do that. Just have not decied to do it yet I know it would be cheaper, but then I still won't like em any better

 

[Itchy1]

Kscustom: Get the locals together and form a league, then go after grant money. Spend other people's money; not your own. I just put in 9 holes 3 weeks ago. The city loves it so much the mayor called me in for a meeting and wants to give me $8k for a back nine.

Cities collect development fees whenever somebody in town constructs a building... a store, restaurant, housing development, etc. A portion of that goes toward, "small park improvements." I read that to say, "put disc golf baskets on every other acre of park land you can find."

Work smartly, not hardly.

 

[Pwingles]

For things to look simple on the surface many times requires a lot of complications behind the scenes to make it look simple.

This doesnt really make any sense in the context of our conversation... :?: I was arguing that it was a simple fix to a problem that you were making complicated by giving me stats and figures about how good people are X percent of the time. None of that matters.
If the hole is too easy, make it harder if you want scores higher.

If youre concerned about NAGS, change the hole.

If you want pros scores to not look like golf is too easy, change the pars. All these things seem easy to fix (although im not sure they all need "fixing")

As far as baskets go, id like to see specs that manufacturers have to operate within. Maybe the older models, previously made and installed baskets can be grandfathered in until they are replaced. Everything made moving forward would be made within the tolerances given to the people making targets if they want to be PDGA Approved targets. They dont have to be approved to be sold, but them knowing PDGA (assuming PDGA would take this stance) wont let a sanctioned event be run there may sway them into not making it, or a course designer from not buying it.

Is there really that much political BS and other crap going on in the PDGA inner workings that stuff like this cant be reasonably talked out and solved? We keep hearing about these more pressing issues that are getting these other things put on the back burner, care to share?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's apparent you don't get it regarding making holes tougher so we'll just leave it at that.

Regarding baskets, it's simply priorities. Changing the basket has way more downside for little in return either for the PDGA or a manufacturer to spend time and money. We still can't get foot faults and falling putt issues resolved in the rules after many years. The only way I see a better basket forced into the market would be if a big time sponsor pumped a few $100K into an NT tour and dictated that this new basket had to be used. Likelihood of this happening... what do you think?

 

[Pwingles]

I understand what youre saying, I just either dont agree or dont think it should be as complicated as you are making it. But you clearly cant help but to talk down to anyone who disagrees, so, we'll leave it at that.


As far as baskets, everyone is stuck on the idea of "one basket", which is unreasonable, and unfair to manufacturers. Rather i suggested, specs that allow for slight differences for them to operate within. Giving manufacturers options as opposed to making the same exact basket as someone else. This to me isnt an impossible task. It would create some uniformity and hopefully increase quality of targets given the PDGA could draw up a design that addresses the flaws of the current targets being used.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you read the basket specs, they do not particularly shoehorn manufacturers into a certain type of basket, especially at the Basic level. There's lots of leeway for making a better basket including a smaller one but no one has done it (Gateway Bullseye, sort of) or appears to find it a worthwhile pursuit other than minor tweaks like smaller basket gaps. It's not like the PDGA Tech Standards team is getting inquiries from inventors asking us whether their target innovations would or could be approved. In contrast, we regularly get requests about possible tweaks to disc technology and specs.

 

[Widdershins]

I will be excited to see how a lot of the Pros handle some of the tight courses at Charlotte. I do expect to hear some bitching about unfair holes because some of the holes at Nevin, HN and Renny really punish you if you miss the fairway.

There is nothing wrong with tight and/or demanding and/or punishing holes so long as a fairway exists. Any time a hole is so tight I don't even aim at a line, merely throw in a general direction, it becomes poke and hope and a bad hole.

A bad hole rewards luck not skill. If I want to gamble with bad odds I will visit a casino.

 

[turso]

Yup, I do think that the way to promote skill more in the sport is not by hindering the putting, just making the fairways tighter and missing them more punishing. Which they do with OB already I think, but I was thinking more on the lines of bad lies than OB.

Nowadays the norm seems to be more on the side of "throw the most overstable disc with huge hyzer route" than "make the player throw arrow straight shot here or risk couple extra throws". Watching the endless hyzering on the open fairways is pretty boring compared to watching the pros do super accurate shots out of tight spots.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Actually I'd like to see less dead straight shots also and see more shots that involve line shaping.

 

[Widdershins]

John Houck is spot on with his design concepts. I have played many Houck courses. I do not recall ever playing a single stupid hole on a Houck course and many, many great holes. Houck is one of the top designers in the game.

Basket design continues to suck because of two factors:

We (the disc golf community, including the parks who install courses) keep buying shitty baskets. Most baskets are sturdy and will last a long time but catch arbitrarily.

We (the disc golf community) has a surprising, shocking number of basket apologists who either think good putts get caught (so a spit out or blow through is the fault of the player) or who like the luck factor involved (poor putts can catch and good putts can fail).

If DGA could not sell their baskets they would improve them tomorrow. DGA is not alone but their place in the market makes them the worst offender.

 

[Pwingles]

So you're suggesting DGA should take the first step in coming up with a design and then implementing it?

I like it. I like the dga baskets already but making it better wouldnt hurt my feelings.
You think if they accomplished that, the other basket making companies would follow suit?

 

[kscustom]

I think he is saying if we as consumers basically boycotted them because of design they would then change it. But as long as they can sell 1000's a year they will not change anything. But if they only sold 10 and the community feed back was poor they would be forced to comply. The other basket making companies use dga designs except innova. A chainstar is a Mach 5 or II new with a single ring at the bottom where the chains hook. Lightning db5 is a Mach 3. Some smaller companies may differ a bit more but the main mfg make the same exact products. Give or take minute details.

But I beleive he is saying we would have to act forcing their hand not them making the first move

 

[jubuttib]

Speaking of basket design, has there been any real feedback from the pros regarding the Vortex basket? They seem to at least cut the amount of blothroughs significantly.

 

[Pwingles]

I think he is saying if we as consumers basically boycotted them because of design they would then change it. But as long as they can sell 1000's a year they will not change anything. But if they only sold 10 and the community feed back was poor they would be forced to comply. The other basket making companies use dga designs except innova. A chainstar is a Mach 5 or II new with a single ring at the bottom where the chains hook. Lightning db5 is a Mach 3. Some smaller companies may differ a bit more but the main mfg make the same exact products. Give or take minute details.

But I beleive he is saying we would have to act forcing their hand not them making the first move

I hope you dont "think" thats what he said, because that is almost verbatim what he did say.
What i got out of it was DGA is a leader in basket sales and manufacturing and that if they had a reason to change before now or in the near future they would, but also that being a leader in this sport they would hopefully try and advance the sport by addressing a flaw that they contribute to directly.