Nose up to flat to nose down putt

[Sheep]

So, should we be discussing nose down on putting as the relation to the launch trajectory or the ground?

I've always looked at it as the launch trajectory. But then everyone wants to argue with me that simon putts nose up. If you spush at all and putt nose up, it wont go anywhere...
You have to spush nose down to the trajectory, thats the secret sauce to the technique. Match the glide plane to the nose angle to control the disc after apex.

Because if we wanna talk about it being nose up or down to the ground, neils putt there is nose up. But, nose down to the trajectory.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

So, should we be discussing nose down on putting as the relation to the launch trajectory or the ground?

I've always looked at it as the launch trajectory. But then everyone wants to argue with me that simon putts nose up. If you spush at all and putt nose up, it wont go anywhere...
You have to spush nose down to the trajectory, thats the secret sauce to the technique. Match the glide plane to the nose angle to control the disc after apex.

Because if we wanna talk about it being nose up or down to the ground, neils putt there is nose up. But, nose down to the trajectory.

Great question. I'm making a much longer more in-depth video with flight comparisons and tech disc stats for multiple nose combinations on 50 foot putts and go into this question.

Those are the two definitions that I talk about as to why it's confusing because people are using different definitions or even the same person swapping between to the two definitions depending on when they can or can't easily see the launch angle.

The problem is, it's hard in real time to see the launch angle and the nose angle in relation to that because the launch angle is established in the first split second of the flight, but then the trajectory doesn't necessarily stay on the launch angle because of how the nose angle interacts with that launch angle, speed, wind, etc.

So it ends up becoming more practical in a sense to talk about the nose angle more in relation to the ground and how it looks like the disc is flying because that's something that's easier for multiple spectators to see and agree on. But when people talk about it like that, it's still sounds like they are speaking technically when it's much less technical and more just gut feeling of how it looks. But the problem is that people don't realize a -22° nose angle with a 28° launch angle at the Apex of the flight will "look like a nose neutral flight" because on flat ground those angles balance out to make the putter nearly parallel to the ground at the Apex and then it glides gently down from there. If it was actually launched nose neutral, it would fly significantly differently after the Apex.

It's not practical to expect people to see the nose angle and launch angle in real time so i'll probably end up just kind of trying to detect what level of analysis the discussion is in person and go along with that or see if the people are interested in the more technical side and try to bridge the gap by saying something like "in order for the a spush putt flight to look nose neutral it has to start nose down so it doesn't stall in the middle of the flight"

More confusing though is that slightly nose up and slightly lower launch angle can sometimes look a bit similar in flight to slightly nose down and slightly higher launch angle because the nose and launch angle balance out to a similar trajectory to reach the apex and the differences after that may not be super noticeable without a side by side comparison.

 

[itlnstln]

Great question. I'm making a much longer more in-depth video with flight comparisons and tech disc stats for multiple nose combinations on 50 foot putts and go into this question.

Those are the two definitions that I talk about as to why it's confusing because people are using different definitions or even the same person swapping between to the two definitions depending on when they can or can't easily see the launch angle.

The problem is, it's hard in real time to see the launch angle and the nose angle in relation to that because the launch angle is established in the first split second of the flight, but then the trajectory doesn't necessarily stay on the launch angle because of how the nose angle interacts with that launch angle, speed, wind, etc.

So it ends up becoming more practical in a sense to talk about the nose angle more in relation to the ground and how it looks like the disc is flying because that's something that's easier for multiple spectators to see and agree on. But when people talk about it like that, it's still sounds like they are speaking technically when it's much less technical and more just gut feeling of how it looks. But the problem is that people don't realize a -22° nose angle with a 28° launch angle at the Apex of the flight will "look like a nose neutral flight" because on flat ground those angles balance out to make the putter nearly parallel to the ground at the Apex and then it glides gently down from there. If it was actually launched nose neutral, it would fly significantly differently after the Apex.

It's not practical to expect people to see the nose angle and launch angle in real time so i'll probably end up just kind of trying to detect what level of analysis the discussion is in person and go along with that or see if the people are interested in the more technical side and try to bridge the gap by saying something like "in order for the a spush putt flight to look nose neutral it has to start nose down so it doesn't stall in the middle of the flight"

More confusing though is that slightly nose up and slightly lower launch angle can sometimes look a bit similar in flight to slightly nose down and slightly higher launch angle because the nose and launch angle balance out to a similar trajectory to reach the apex and the differences after that may not be super noticeable without a side by side comparison.

My guess is on coverage, they're using the flight of the disc to help determine the nose angle (correctly or not). They see something that's a little floaty, and that's "nose-up," while something that dives a little early is "nose-down."

 

[Sheep]

My guess is on coverage, they're using the flight of the disc to help determine the nose angle (correctly or not). They see something that's a little floaty, and that's "nose-up," while something that dives a little early is "nose-down."

yeah, its a lot more complicated than some info a tech disc can give you unfortunately.

While driving is something we can put a finger on a few rights and wrongs, putting is nowhere in that ballpark. Everyones putt is unique and individual, there is no right or wrong to any of it. There are things that work better with some styles, but, that's about it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

My guess is on coverage, they're using the flight of the disc to help determine the nose angle (correctly or not). They see something that's a little floaty, and that's "nose-up," while something that dives a little early is "nose-down."

Yeah that's definitely what they do, it's necessarily crude because otherwise people would have an even harder time understanding the categories.

For example, these putts are not nose up, they are a few degrees below 0 but combine only a few degrees nose down with that high of a launch angle and you have a floaty stalling nose-up looking putt.



Here's replicating the stroke with the tech disc:

View attachment IMG_7542.MOV

I'm laughing / shocked at the end because I just hit metal 5 times in a row and then made the putt and then the tech disc right after even though it was a weird standstill minimal movement wrist flick style, but I drew metal way more with it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Really in depth for the bois

 

[Sheep]

Yeah that's definitely what they do, it's necessarily crude because otherwise people would have an even harder time understanding the categories.

For example, these putts are not nose up, they are a few degrees below 0 but combine only a few degrees nose down with that high of a launch angle and you have a floaty stalling nose-up looking putt.



Here's replicating the stroke with the tech disc:

View attachment 342265

I'm laughing / shocked at the end because I just hit metal 5 times in a row and then made the putt and then the tech disc right after even though it was a weird standstill minimal movement wrist flick style, but I drew metal way more with it.
View attachment 342266

I mean, I was trying to tell you all this stuff... And you wanted to fight with me about it.

I get you wanna figure it out on your own, and that's cool. Just remember some of us been "figuring it out" for years now and talking about it. =)

 

[HyzerRoc]

I mean, I was trying to tell you all this stuff... And you wanted to fight with me about it.

I get you wanna figure it out on your own, and that's cool. Just remember some of us been "figuring it out" for years now and talking about it. =)

Can you refer the posts you are talking about Sheep so I can read how other people tackled this in the past? I have read a great deal of this forum and never seen a discussion of nose angle that goes as in-depth as Neil does here.

 

[Sheep]

Can you refer the posts you are talking about Sheep so I can read how other people tackled this in the past? I have read a great deal of this forum and never seen a discussion of nose angle that goes as in-depth as Neil does here.

The argument was in this thread.
Everyone says Simon putts nose up. Neil went as far to make a video.

Simon can putt nose up, does on occasions, but as we've concluded here. It's nose angle to trajectory, not nose angle to ground.

So when you watch on coverage, it looks like he putts nose up.
When you watch Ricky putt on camera it looks like he tosses the flight plate at the chains. But when you actually get out and play with these guys in person like I have, (well not simon, but I have played with ricky) it's very apparent how much the camera plays tricks on whats actually happening.



Ricky plays so fast I couldn't get camera out fast enough after he threw this 650+ drive for birdy on 15 at cedar. ... 2021 I think?
Being staff affords you some luxuries when you host majors. I go out and play with the pro players and talk about course stuff, etc. Answer questions, show them how to play the holes.
Well, did. we dont' use cedar anymore, cause it doesn't meet DGPT Criteria for spectators. Thats why we use that garbage ass mill ridge course.

I think it was 2 holes after this, I started talking with ricky about his putt and how it looks so different on camera and he was giggling about it a bit. Cause it looks so drastically different in person.

 

[HyzerRoc]

The argument was in this thread.

For me it is really helpful to see the differences between spush and spin styles in nose angle he pointed out in the video. I took your other comment to mean the video didnt add much, but I think it did in terms of visualisation of the different trajectories/apexes of the disc depending on the style of putt and exact measurements of the different nose angles.

Just some anecdote but on the weekend I pointed out to friends that putts are usually nose down and I dont think they believed me. Watching all kinds of throws on slomo or picture by picture really does alter how to think of throwing mechanics as the nose angle would be really difficult to see at the start of the putting motion without video.

 

[Sheep]

For me it is really helpful to see the differences between spush and spin styles in nose angle he pointed out in the video. I took your other comment to mean the video didnt add much, but I think it did in terms of visualisation of the different trajectories/apexes of the disc depending on the style of putt and exact measurements of the different nose angles.

Just some anecdote but on the weekend I pointed out to friends that putts are usually nose down and I dont think they believed me. Watching all kinds of throws on slomo or picture by picture really does alter how to think of throwing mechanics as the nose angle would be really difficult to see at the start of the putting motion without video.

I love it when I miss putts and my buddies will be like "of course you missed, you threw it nose down."

I just facepalm, cause they dont understand. hahaha.

I got a high speed camera. It takes 2 people to do anything with high speed, cause you cant' run it and do whatever golf wise by yourself.
I could maybe do putting, but, regardless with putting being unique to each person. it's fruitless if you ask me.
There are some putting fundamentals, follow those and make it your own.
That and its a LOT of effort to get the high speed stuff out and work with it for people to essentially not listen. I've done it multiple times with some other high speed stuff I took, and people still wanna argue. Im' not sitting here trying to pound my fist and say I'm right, but I'm throwing my info out there and I can clearly see people are not listening. And if they are reading, they are responding emotionally, not actually to what I'm saying.

Reminds me of the in person conversations where people tune out and stop listening to everyone cause they are ready to just tell everyone their story or whatever.

Listening is harder than anything. And I've been accused of not listening. I can tell you, I am listening, very closely. That's how I can tell people are not reading/listening. It's fine though.
I'm doing my thing regardless.

I'm still waiting for more people to report my posts, cause I'm muted in my other thread for being "Rude" or whatever. which is hilarious.

Apparently rules dont apply the same to everyone.
Like the admin report I got back on here when I had a person attacking me on every comment I made, and finally I reported them and got a response back "not going to do anything, you deserve it."

Good lord I side tracked.
whatever.
Fingers just type what brain thinks.

 

[@CD-]

The pop at the end from the fanned grip middle through pinky fingers for Calvin acts to shift the disc from a hyzer during the pull back to a flat nose-down flight. As others mentioned the nose angle in relation to the trajectory is what matters for aerodynamics to keep the putt on line.

Making adjustments to spin, velocity, nose angle, and trajectory of release are sometimes necessary with different distances, wind directions, and elevation (up/down hills or elevated baskets). Understanding those adjustments takes time outside & on the course practicing but the general putting form and setup should be drilled into muscle memory via consistent practice. Calvin mentions in the video reducing his leg involvement for shorter putts to reduce velocity. I also will shorten my staggered leg distance or reduce the back leg push off for shorter putts (and the opposite for longer distances). I tend to switch my grip slightly forward or backward to produce more/less RPMs as needed for distance.

I believe thumbtrack stable putters are a good training tool for learning this style putt - the thumbtrack informs where to put your thumb and helps the get that nose down release with a variety of grips. I putted for a year with 175g DX Rhynos and transitioned to BB Aviars to get a bit more glide & putting distance outside the 10m putting green.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I mean, I was trying to tell you all this stuff... And you wanted to fight with me about it.

That's one perspective. Another is "if only you explained it better, you could've helped me understand." That's a better perspective to have as a teacher since it keeps reminding you to always try to explain things better and target the audience better. This is actually a cool life hack basically that improves real life interactions with people too and @Brychanus models it well with his questions which seem to follow the sentiment "If only I can find the right questions to ask, it might help them work it out in the way they need to be able to understand" (not convince them externally that you are right).

I'm not saying it's all on you though, the subject isn't easy to immediately understand all the mechanics and I may have missed things or misinterpreted what you were trying to say before. But my memory all of our past convos is consistent: I'm trying to understand and just asking questions to try to better understand. You're the only person that accuses me of wanting to fight, stir shit up, or of asking bad questions.

But I'd hope by now that you'd realize I'm not just here trying to fight / stir shit up. It should be very obvious to you by now that I'm putting in a lot of time and effort to trying to learn and actually am learning and also give back what I'm learning with another unique perspective. But this effort to learn includes questioning if what someone says is not clear or doesn't seem right.

Experts and expert knowledge from the past is proven wrong every day in every field, so forgive me for not just taking on faith that everything you say is right. I can assure you that I usually assume there's value in what people are saying here and try to find it when reading their posts. We see that some of what was taught by experts before in DG is considered wrong today.

 

[Sheep]

But I'd hope by now that you'd realize I'm not just here trying to fight / stir shit up. It should be very obvious to you by now that I'm putting in a lot of time and effort to trying to learn and actually am learning and also give back what I'm learning with another unique perspective. But this effort to learn includes questioning if what someone says is not clear or doesn't seem right.

Experts and expert knowledge from the past is proven wrong every day in every field, so forgive me for not just taking on faith that everything you say is right. I can assure you that I usually assume there's value in what people are saying here and try to find it when reading their posts. We see that some of what was taught by experts before in DG is considered wrong today.

It's all good. People tend to think I'm being hostile when I talk. I... Really dont' care that much to waste that emotional energy. People do frustrate me while talking, and I become more harsh when I speak. but... mostly its people miss-understanding how direct I am.

This generally falls 2 categories. I speak short and sweet and I'm really the bad guy cause I'm so mean and awful. Or I spend time explaining what I mean, but nobody reads it because its to much text, so they get hung up on 1 or 2 things in there and stop reading and tune out and rub their face on the keyboard because I'm an awful person or something.


And I get it with expert knowledge. But disc golf everything right now is full of everyone trying to re-invent the wheel bringing up stuff that has been beaten so hard, the horse is half burred in the ground and already a skeleton and people are still playing on the ribs with sticks like a xylophone.
If that makes sense. Sometimes you just gotta try the stuff yourself.

Some new YT coach coming out and "oh look at how I added 50 feet to my drive" ..... And they start teaching squish the bug again. or something. Which we know is a bad concept.
There are a few new "spin and throw" guys now too acting like they found some new thing. Like no. we discussed this stuff 20 years ago. Well.. Other guys did. I've not been around that long, I was teaching ball golf.

 

[Casey 1988]

So, should we be discussing nose down on putting as the relation to the launch trajectory or the ground?

I've always looked at it as the launch trajectory. But then everyone wants to argue with me that simon putts nose up. If you spush at all and putt nose up, it wont go anywhere...
You have to spush nose down to the trajectory, thats the secret sauce to the technique. Match the glide plane to the nose angle to control the disc after apex.

Because if we wanna talk about it being nose up or down to the ground, neils putt there is nose up. But, nose down to the trajectory.

Simon Lizotte Does what Simon dose as he has been playing other disc sports longer like Guts or single person Freestyle as he said growing up in Germany he did not really have as a kid disc golf courses, until 2009 or so and he only played more when on vacation to where his grandmother & grandfather lived in Canada. I have seen some of his dead channels on YouTube he made on the topic

 

[Sheep]

Simon Lizotte Does what Simon dose as he has been playing other disc sports longer like Guts or single person Freestyle as he said growing up in Germany he did not really have as a kid disc golf courses, until 2009 or so and he only played more when on vacation to where his grandmother & grandfather lived in Canada. I have seen some of his dead channels on YouTube he made on the topic

dead channels huh?

 

[Casey 1988]

dead channels huh?

Yes During his really big injury in 2017 or so for Simon Lizotte he had a Dreampions channel on YouTube having his early footage of playing a course in Canada where a Grandparent set is from in 2000's. He may have had another 3rd channel but I can't find it.

 

[Sheep]

Yes During his really big injury in 2017 or so for Simon Lizotte he had a Dreampions channel on YouTube having his early footage of playing a course in Canada where a Grandparent set is from in 2000's. He may have had another 3rd channel but I can't find it.

Weird.
Neat to know though. THanks!

 

[Skervoy]

That's one perspective. Another is "if only you explained it better, you could've helped me understand." That's a better perspective to have as a teacher since it keeps reminding you to always try to explain things better and target the audience better. This is actually a cool life hack basically that improves real life interactions with people too and @Brychanus models it well with his questions which seem to follow the sentiment "If only I can find the right questions to ask, it might help them work it out in the way they need to be able to understand" (not convince them externally that you are right).

I'm not saying it's all on you though, the subject isn't easy to immediately understand all the mechanics and I may have missed things or misinterpreted what you were trying to say before. But my memory all of our past convos is consistent: I'm trying to understand and just asking questions to try to better understand. You're the only person that accuses me of wanting to fight, stir shit up, or of asking bad questions.

But I'd hope by now that you'd realize I'm not just here trying to fight / stir shit up. It should be very obvious to you by now that I'm putting in a lot of time and effort to trying to learn and actually am learning and also give back what I'm learning with another unique perspective. But this effort to learn includes questioning if what someone says is not clear or doesn't seem right.

Experts and expert knowledge from the past is proven wrong every day in every field, so forgive me for not just taking on faith that everything you say is right. I can assure you that I usually assume there's value in what people are saying here and try to find it when reading their posts. We see that some of what was taught by experts before in DG is considered wrong today.

Just watched Ryan Sheldon harp on that you shouldnt lead with the elbow in a forehand throw. Then I go frame by frame on his demo shot, looks about as weird as that clip of Eagle. So a self proclaimed coach and proven expert thrower dont even know what he is really doing in slow mo.

So I can see 100% why somebody wants to really do their research rather than relying on old myths!

 

[Sheep]

Just watched Ryan Sheldon harp on that you shouldnt lead with the elbow in a forehand throw. Then I go frame by frame on his demo shot, looks about as weird as that clip of Eagle. So a self proclaimed coach and proven expert thrower dont even know what he is really doing in slow mo.

So I can see 100% why somebody wants to really do their research rather than relying on old myths!

There seems to be a lot of weird forehand information that floats around. I think I know the video you're talking about there, and I tried to watch it and it was just bad. I didn't make it crazy far into it. I was like "oh cool, someone new to give info" and... Ugh.

If people only knew the amount of video's I shoot that I don't post, because they are just bad like that.

I will say you dont wanna lead with your elbow like eagle does. Everything about eagles forehand was stuff you should never ever do.
I don't care how far it goes, its an absolute primer class on how to hurt yourself throwing a forehand by hyper extending all your joints.

If I was to make any strong statement about forehands, its that your elbow needs to be leading, but it doesn't need to be driving. does that make sense?