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H- your rear foot is rolling too inward/early. There should be some pressure on the pinky toe to start the push away from target and the pressure should roll to the instep. Spread the earth apart with your feet.
DFD - Rear foot looked ok at 10s, but looks like you have too much pressure on front foot - probably need to stride both feet north/targetward. Main thing is you never drop into the drill. When you drop there will or should be a little rotation if your rear knee bends toward your toes. Paddy is essentially doing a two arm DFD. You will notice that his/my front knee moves/clears back toward the heel after the drop/during the throw.
H- your rear foot is rolling too inward/early. There should be some pressure on the pinky toe to start the push away from target and the pressure should roll to the instep. Spread the earth apart with your feet.
DFD - Rear foot looked ok at 10s, but looks like you have too much pressure on front foot - probably need to stride both feet north/targetward. Main thing is you never drop into the drill. When you drop there will or should be a little rotation if your rear knee bends toward your toes. Paddy is essentially doing a two arm DFD. You will notice that his/my front knee moves/clears back toward the heel after the drop/during the throw.
I put about 45 minutes of work into both of these this morning…
With Hershyer, I noticed I was using the force of my rear foot to propel my body forward, while also trying to maintain my weight on the inside edge of my foot. I suppose at this point I should forget about bleeding my weight over the rear, and allow my weight to be over my outside toes to roll it over to the inside edge.
I was also taking too large of a first stance, so I decreased that size. Delaying the roll of my rear foot seems to be a subtle huge huge difference, too. This is allowing the power of my rear leg to be put into rotating my hips, while before it was being used to stride my body forward.
It looks and feels a lot smoother, but it doesn't look like my butt is dropping anymore?
With DFD, I'm finding it really hard to "turn into my heel". This is probably the most obscure movement I have had to learn so far, and I think it's because it's so mirrored to what you normally do when throwing due to the backhand nature.
I have no idea if this looks even close to correct / in the right direction. My gut says right direction, but it's very uncertain of that.
H - looks much better with rear foot balance/pressure.
DFD - Note how when I drop I'm in athletic position, I could take on a linebacker from any direction. My center is between my feet and inline with my front heel/ankle, my front toes/knee and shoulder/hand and nose are all basically inline with the DF and trajectory. My front knee doesn't move back toward my heel unless I actually let go of the door frame and swing.
Don't try to turn. If you drop, you will basically automatically turn. Your butt is going way to the east behind your heels instead of dropping targetward.
mAss direction is looking better. Though I think in both you're getting a little to squatty with both legs moving together rather than getting fully leveraged inside/toward the instep of the rear leg. The front leg should be able to be deweighted and just hang there while you're hanging on the frame. So I'd focus next on this part in the rear leg: https://youtu.be/mvGudQYfjD8?t=212
While you do that, you should be able to release your front foot from the ground and feel like you're hanging against the frame with your foot pressure more toward the instep of the rear foot. Here's what I wrote to NDK about what surprised me since I think it's really weird if you haven't done anything like it before:
It actually felt "wrong" to me at first because there was a ton of leverage from my instep and into my rear hip that I'd never felt before. Not painful or effortful - just very noticeable because of the way the foot was helping my leg leverage into the hip socket.
Once you get it, there's a sweet spot where you'll be able to drop and swing right off into the plant without spinning or rotating off the rear foot. That's the "meat" of the DG BH.
Flashblast once told me that he believed that this move, when you get it all correct, is basically the entire DG BH. I wouldn't say it's everything, but if you get it down pat it sure helps you get a lot of it.
mAss direction is looking better. Though I think in both you're getting a little to squatty with both legs moving together rather than getting fully leveraged inside/toward the instep of the rear leg. The front leg should be able to be deweighted and just hang there while you're hanging on the frame. So I'd focus next on this part in the rear leg: https://youtu.be/mvGudQYfjD8?t=212
While you do that, you should be able to release your front foot from the ground and feel like you're hanging against the frame with your foot pressure more toward the instep of the rear foot. Here's what I wrote to NDK about what surprised me since I think it's really weird if you haven't done anything like it before:
Flashblast once told me that he believed that this move, when you get it all correct, is basically the entire DG BH. I wouldn't say it's everything, but if you get it down pat it sure helps you get a lot of it.
Ok, if I have the squat down, I then applied all the pressure from the instep of the rear foot… even lifted my foot off of the ground in the video below to prove it. Definitely feeling the tension on my rear hip.
Man, this is like 6 different improvement sessions just in the past 2 days. I'm very determined to figure this all out and incorporate into a full throw before the ground dries up. Luckily, that doesn't happen around here until late May.
Ok, if I have the squat down, I then applied all the pressure from the instep of the rear footÂ… even lifted my foot off of the ground in the video below to prove it. Definitely feeling the tension on my rear hip.
Man, this is like 6 different improvement sessions just in the past 2 days. IÂ'm very determined to figure this all out and incorporate into a full throw before the ground dries up. Luckily, that doesnÂ't happen around here until late May.
Encourage you to think "leverage and drop" - "squat" can sometimes activate the wrong sequence and load.
That looks closer though. I'd keep working on that and the last few posts here. Try to keep getting your mAss directly at the camera at this angle and down with gravity, leveraged on rear foot instep. Then I might try to get front foot heel more in line with rear foot toes. The trick is to learn that bit of diagonal shift but with your mAss shifting at us/towing the disc toward the target and then landing in the plant to swing.
This drill can definitely be fussy but it really was worth all the tweaking and optimizing. It also improves over time/tightens up
Encourage you to think "leverage and drop" - "squat" can sometimes activate the wrong sequence and load.
That looks closer though. I'd keep working on that and the last few posts here. Try to keep getting your mAss directly at the camera at this angle and down with gravity, leveraged on rear foot instep. Then I might try to get front foot heel more in line with rear foot toes. The trick is to learn that bit of diagonal shift but with your mAss shifting at us/towing the disc toward the target and then landing in the plant to swing.
This drill can definitely be fussy but it really was worth all the tweaking and optimizing. It also improves over time/tightens up
This is getting more enjoyable since I think I know what forces I'm playing around with now.
So I'm trying to get deeper (lower) as shown below, but I'm wondering if I've gone too far.
I'm also trying to line my front heel up with my rear toes… but I'm suppose to keep my front toes in line with the "door frame". The only way I can see this working is if I move my rear foot a tad more to the east of my target.
Kind of starting to look like I'm over-doing all of it in this video? Or maybe it's correct?
I'd post a gif of someone flaming a thread to represent how I feel right now hahaha.
Posting a video of my progress. I'm tempted to go out and play with how nice the weather is, but my rational brain took over. Instead, I worked on form during nap time. I really feel like I'm getting this dialed in, but posting a video to see if there's feedback on what I'm doing.
I need to get the muscle memory reallllly burned in before I consider putting a disc in my hand. Otherwise, I'm sure I'll digress. I'm really starting to feel and understand the importance of getting the center of gravity low to accelerate the disc.
My concern with the drill is getting overly dependent on the door frame, so I started doing a "phantom" door frame. This lets me use the door as a frame of reference in filming to see if I'm staying consistent without a door to be supported by.
I have some balance issues in the video, but I feel like I'm improving.
I could get out and throw a few discs, but I'm not feeling totally frustrated right now, and I feel this is more valuable in the long run.
So! Here's a progress update and looking for feedback post… I went to the field to record a few full throws. Did it without the disc in hand because I did not want to be distracted by the actual disc while trying to internalize the movements.
I could only do a couple rear shots because of my daughter losing patience (Ewok noise in the video).
I'm going into a field to throw putters and collect baseline data / film Saturday, but am asking if anyone has any feedback before hand… it looks better IMO, but still not quite right? I feel like I have the drop and leverage pretty good.
Thanks a ton ahead of time regardless, my throw would not be this level of good without you guys.
So here's the video benchmarking my throw for this season and comparing my improvements to last season. All these throws were Judge putters that flew between 200 and 250 feet. I had a tail and left to right wind, which probably impacted the flight path. I probably won't be posting again until next Fall, as form changes really only occur in the off-season, but let me know if you guys see anything. Thanks a ton for all the help this winter!
I think if I were to focus you on one area, it would be to keep working on rear-side coiling and shift drills that help you "march" and swing "inside posture" (elephant walk, Inside swing, buttwipe, Hershyzers, door frame). Remember that the idea isn't just to get good at the drills - it's to build up muscle memory that competes with suboptimal swing habits. It's like benefitting from compound interest during the season.
Form-wise, I think I'd pick it back up here:
Notice how you end up looking pretty horse-stanced with the rear knee pointing back rather than deweighting and dropping in. So you're still getting your upper body trapped between the legs rather than shifting fully on top of each leg. Picked the 6x because you both have craze ape indexes.
I think if I were to focus you on one area, it would be to keep working on rear-side coiling and shift drills that help you "march" and swing "inside posture" (elephant walk, Inside swing, buttwipe, Hershyzers, door frame). Remember that the idea isn't just to get good at the drills - it's to build up muscle memory that competes with suboptimal swing habits. It's like benefitting from compound interest during the season.
Form-wise, I think I'd pick it back up here:
Notice how you end up looking pretty horse-stanced with the rear knee pointing back rather than deweighting and dropping in. So you're still getting your upper body trapped between the legs rather than shifting fully on top of each leg. Picked the 6x because you both have craze ape indexes.
I'm honored to be compared to Paul, although I question whether I'm worthy
So, with regards to the horse stance, I think I incorrectly learned something from the Hershyer drills from about 2 pages back…
I learned that the weight should be on the outside edge of the rear foot (violating Hogan Power Move), until the front foot is fully planted, then use all that power-shift to fire the hips against the brace. I believe this is leading to the horse stance. The video below shows 2 air-throws. 1 which I'm not letting the weight bleed over to the inside edge of my foot, and 1 where I am.
I think the knee angle is better in the second throw… what do you think?
Ok I guess I lied about it being my last post for the year. I guess I'm more in a field-throw and diagnose stage of my throw. This morning I went out to the field despite it being 40 degrees and rainy.
Through film, I noticed I wasn't getting my hips rotated away from the target enough. It was also difficult to drop into the throw. I wasn't sure what was going on.
Then, I looked at a video of Gannon throwing. I really like using this video to diagnose issues because 1) kid tears it up and 2) we have similar levels of awkward lank (although I probably have 50 pounds of muscle and more realistically body fat on him) and 3) it shows his throw from multiple angles.
What I noticed after like 10 watches is his rear foot. It comes into the cross behind him, but further back than I was (some call it staggered). I hadn't internalized the stagger from the DFD into my actual throw, which kept the hips closed off.
I'm going to need to throw a large volume of discs to internalize this.
I've also been working on SW22's "power pocket explained" with the wrist action with crazy good results. Tons of spin on release, and the action on focusing on my wrist in the throw is leading to pretty consistent angles.
I usually look at young Paul because I think it's more achievable for most body types, and like SW I worry about wear and tear from his modern form (even if it comes with some real performance advantages - I'm personally mostly trying to optimize for efficiency & longevity since I'm closer to 40).
I thought it was interesting that Earhart recently mentioned Paul seems like he has lost some distance. I'm curious if it's just a phase Paul's working through, or if that extreme horizontal mode he uses is adding up. I love watching that dude play so I hope it's the former, I guess we'll see.
So, with regards to the horse stance, I think I incorrectly learned something from the Hershyer drills from about 2 pages back…
I learned that the weight should be on the outside edge of the rear foot (violating Hogan Power Move), until the front foot is fully planted, then use all that power-shift to fire the hips against the brace. I believe this is leading to the horse stance.
Yeah - don't do that. That is one of the many weird things people pick up from the internet and it really screws up how they move. I'm going to answer your question but I want to redirect you back to the big picture before mentioning details.
The annoyingly simple answer is that it's really just like walking or running sideways in balance. You just need to learn to do it in a specialized way.
This is one of the topics where I've found being obsessive about the biomechanics really helped convince me. When people say "the hips" or "fire the hips" or you think it yourself, ask "what do you mean?" I bet you'll usually get a circular reply that amounts to something like "you know, the hips! ... You fire them!" Almost no one talks about the muscles or pelvis or femurs. People think of the brace as this magical, rigid thing the leg forms that shows up nowhere else in sports or human locomotion. There's all this bad hand-me-down advice from 300' throwers or people muscling 350 or 400'+. Players don't always need to know all that to learn it. But I did.
It's really no different than ball golf (kinetically), which is part of why SW made The Hips thread and Elephant Walk. It's also generally why he suggests spending a lot of time learning standstills first. I know so many people want to skip that phase. I've seen a lot of form critiques at this point: their form is always missing something when they do. Sometimes it does get more obvious when they go to X-step so there's an opporunity for a good feedback cycle there. So -
Practical advice:
-There is no shame in learning to out-throw almost everyone around you from a standstill. If I can do it with my body, you can do it with yours. It will help you learn the harder stuff. Seriously consider it.
-Either way, walking and x-stepping add more complexity and do deserve special attention IMO. Swivel stairs is designed to help you with the weirdness that is the X-step. But one thing I did that helped me understand "the move" that actually helped my standstills too is running sideways with my booty preset 100 yards. Forcing my body to learn it by doing it in another athletic motion (well, for my rhino-esque mAss) helped a ton. I still am taking my time to learn how to find the sweet spots for "the move" in my standstills and x-step.
You're still tipping/tilting the wrong direction in your indoor x-step there. Hershyzer, DFD, Swivel stairs, maybe attack rear leg with natural movement like 100 yards with the booty preset. You need to fix your initial overall posture to move better. It's hard. Everything gets easier after that.
Then, I looked at a video of Gannon throwing. I really like using this video to diagnose issues because 1) kid tears it up and 2) we have similar levels of awkward lank (although I probably have 50 pounds of muscle and more realistically body fat on him) and 3) it shows his throw from multiple angles.
Wow - you gave young Gannon feedback! that's an awesome credential to have - who knew you were coaching the future top player in the world?
@brychanus:
I really like the side run drill, to be honest. It fulfills my psychological need to get the heart rate up, and it feels "right" physically, and gets some DG mechanics internalized. I'm considering going on a run on the bike path in this manner for a few miles and getting weird looks. And it's really good to have the feedback of someone who is an expert in biomechanics, since there does seem to be a LOT of bad advice out there (for example, this could be interpreted as "running backwards" to some). As a not-expert in biomechanics (chemical engineer here), it's nice to have around.
The side run also LOOKS right. I want to say I look like Paul and Heimburg as they run up for the throw. It feels balanced and powerful.
As a person who needs regiment in their life, I started a short term routine this morning to break my body into this motion. For the side run, I started playing with the weight distribution over my feet.
I would push off with my rear foot's ball, then catch with my front foot's ball, then roll to the middle, then stride then catch with my rear foot's middle. Assuming I'm doing it right, this actually wasn't hard to do.
It feels familiar to a drill I must have done has a kid playing soccer. The balance also comes pretty easy, as it's basically the balance needed on a snowboard. The spine tilt is also relatively the same, since you tilt backwards a bit snowboarding to compensate for the decline of the mountain, and then use the butt to control the center of gravity and steer. It's basically like learning to ride a snowboard switch (for me, anyway). Except instead of counterbalancing gravity from the mountain grade with a rear tilt, you're counterbalancing the constant falling that comes from running with a spine tilt.
I basically did this across a tennis court for 15 minutes. Every now and then, I would switch to the forehand orientation, as this is easier for me and it helps me "remember" what the drill should feel like.
I also did Hershyzer drills for 15 minutes. Same thing with the forehand orientation.
The videos below are the final products of today's work. I considered compiling them into ghost throws and putter throws, but should probably put a week of doing this and speeding up before consolidating into 1 motion if I want to see good results.
Again, thanks for all the help on this to both you guys. It's really awesome to have experts of so many things come together on this platform. If anything seems off in those drills, let me know. As you've probably noticed, I have scholiosis and some other physical alignment issues, so I'm sure there will be some things that are off naturally, but other things that are within my control.
Also, let me introduce you to one of the best coaches in the industry - Remy the K9.
This morning, I realized why all of this felt familiar.
To satisfy the need to get the standstill mechanics down, I did 20 minutes of the Hershyer drill with a wind up and swing. From film review yesterday, I worked on maintaining my side bend and striding forward enough so my shoulders are level at the address point of the throw.
I did 20 minutes of the lateral stride drill. This time in bursts, as the disc golf throw is more of a burst sport than a physical marathon.
I noticed that, in the Hershyzer drill, the front knee should come up pretty high compared to what I was doing in the strides. I figured it would be smarter to do the strides while lifting my knees up high enough to allow for an easy transition into the Hershyzer movement when the time is right.
Then it clicked why all of this felt familiar. I remember learned from soccer as a little kid that you should always focus on lifting your knees higher and higher in drills controllably as this gives you a better and more controlled range of motion when actually playing.
Specifically, I remembered the toe-tap drills. When you're small, this drill can feel like you're lifting your knees as high as possible. The other thing to focus on is not actually putting any weight on the ball, as this causes the ball to move. Eventually, we moved on to dribbling the ball laterally when appropriate, then dribbling laterally quicker and quicker while maintaining control.
Which brings me back to this lateral movement drill. I'm finding it relatively easy to figure out, because it feels exactly like dribbling a ball laterally with the finesse needed to maintain control. Kind of an advantage.
I'm not finding a YouTube video of the drill where you actually move the ball laterally while performing the toe touches, but I definitely remember doing it in practice.
