On the edge of professional Disc Golf

[JTacoma03]

I'm not going to bother with some of the trolls on this site who latch on to intelligent conversation (they like to talk smack on here, but then see me face to face and get real quiet). So I'll address without a page long bunch of quotes:

Three Putt, we go round and round fairly often, so let me apologize if it comes across as disrespect. That's not my game, we're both passionate about this game but have somewhat divergent perspectives.

One such is where you say you feel like you're simply rooting for failure - there is some truth to this, because there's not much effort typically made to find out if there's a plan. Anybody with an idea is treated as a newbie with no experience just because we haven't been throwing since before beveled edge was patented. To your credit (and others since we're both at fault for vast generalization in our arguments) most people simply don't get it and throw terrible ideas out there. However in my opinion equally wrong is using a seniority position to marginalize new ideas in favor of groupthink status quo simply because someone is younger.

The fired up part of me is because we're finally in a thread on this site with strategic business planning...yet that tired old battle line keeps coming around somehow even though it has no place in this thread or relevance to what was discussed.

Additionally, I'm not an angry person, you can ask many of the people on this site have met me or seen me work. I genuinely love being a media-based advocate for the sport, if I didn't I wouldn't endure the inane criticism that I often take from this site even though most people's best efforts couldn't top my worst (sorry if that sounds arrogant).

Finally, (and this is more at the tagalongs than yourself) just because someone knows something doesn't mean they're going to run straight here and blab it. DGCR posters have gotten arrogant in the last couple of years as the site has grown in popularity, it may be the social center of the DG-related-internet but it's far from the business center.

 

[Three Putt]

Strategic business plan? Where was that in this thread? 'Cause I missed it.

There is an article that didn't give any details. You talked some about promoting a disc golf lifestyle and/or doing something like CrossFit did. Then there was a lot of talk about drugs and rental discs. Oh, and the crazy part where somebody was guessing that 7 million people play disc golf. So I remember some ideas, but I missed the business planning.

No biggie, I assume somewhere somebody has one. I just can't comment on it becasue I have no idea what it is, and I don't suspect anybody will tell me about it any time soon.

If they get spectators in Europe that would need to be looked at closely, becasue getting spectators would turn the tide of things on the event end. With spectators, a lot of doors open. Our events are so grassroots "disc golf by disc golfers for disc golfers" that there might just not be the people with the know-how to provide a spectator-friendly event and/or how to promote the event to spectators. Probably one thing I'd try to do if I was really trying to make professional disc golf big would be to try as quickly as I could to get the big events out of the hands of disc golfers and into the hands of people who know how to run big events.

It might turn out the pro disc golf will work in places in Europe and all the good US players will have to go over there to make money. Spending your 20's in Sweden and Finland playing disc golf and getting paid would be cool.

Anyway, he asked why there used to be money in Frisbee sports that we don't have anymore. I answered. Truthfully. For some reason, our historic tie-in with Wham-O and the IFA gets swept under the rug like it's a dirty little secret to the point that evidently one of the major promoters of our sport was unaware of it.

 

[JTacoma03]

Probably one thing I'd try to do if I was really trying to make professional disc golf big would be to try as quickly as I could to get the big events out of the hands of disc golfers and into the hands of people who know how to run big events.

Well, OK there's a disconnect there because I see this as an easy extrapolation of what Jussi is discussing. He mentions at the end of the article a great example of running the European Masters himself. He's basically laying out his philosophy so when people see it in action they don't go "huh" and scratch their heads. It's the playbook before the game starts...

To me that's real obvious...but if it's not then well...I guess it's gotta be broken down further.

Anyway, he asked why there used to be money in Frisbee sports that we don't have anymore. I answered. Truthfully. For some reason, our historic tie-in with Wham-O and the IFA gets swept under the rug like it's a dirty little secret to the point that evidently one of the major promoters of our sport was unaware of it.

Well, you're half right on this in my personal opinion, but I think the latter half isn't so much that he doesn't know of its existence...but rather he's asking informed questions to gain different perspectives and points of view. That may be a lost-in-translation issue...and the internet can be hard to judge tone...since on forums most people barge in to talk about what they know, rather than to ask about what they want clarified.

 

[grodney]

Three Putt, TPro, David, Chuck, etc., dropping serious amounts of wisdom and experience.

It's probably a topic for a whole other thread, but I'll add that every time a "new Championship course!!!!" is installed/proposed or a course is lengthened/redesigned to make it "Championship Quality!!!", the Big Dream dies a little bit, or at least takes a step back -- in total contradiction to what the Hardcore Dreamers believe they are accomplishing.

 

[Three Putt]

Well, OK there's a disconnect there because I see this as an easy extrapolation of what Jussi is discussing. He mentions at the end of the article a great example of running the European Masters himself. He's basically laying out his philosophy so when people see it in action they don't go "huh" and scratch their heads. It's the playbook before the game starts...

To me that's real obvious...but if it's not then well...I guess it's gotta be broken down further.

I didn't see a playbook. I saw a "you should wait and see what we do" comment. I can see what he wants to happen, but no real explanation of how he is going to make it happen. Hopefully he is on to something that can be exported stateside. It's not impossible for a disc golfer to learn how to plan and run a big event. It's just not really the norm from my experience. I see the fact that all of our TD are players as more of that insular "disc golf by disc golfers for disc golfers" cocoon that we trap ourselves in and wonder why nobody outside our cocoon knows about us. Somebody has to think outside the cocoon. Maybe Jussi is. Maybe what he is doing can be communicated and transferred stateside. I hope it can, even though I still don't know what "it" is.

Well, you're half right on this in my personal opinion, but I think the latter half isn't so much that he doesn't know of its existence...but rather he's asking informed questions to gain different perspectives and points of view. That may be a lost-in-translation issue...and the internet can be hard to judge tone...since on forums most people barge in to talk about what they know, rather than to ask about what they want clarified.

So what do you see as the other half? The half I have was pieced together from conversations with several different people over a long period of time and has changed as I have gathered more information. If you have something I can add that would be great.

 

[BgWvDave]

I'm not going to bother with some of the trolls on this site who latch on to intelligent conversation (they like to talk smack on here, but then see me face to face and get real quiet).

I had to quote this. the gems just keep coming.

 

[JTacoma03]

I didn't see a playbook. I saw a "you should wait and see what we do" comment. I can see what he wants to happen, but no real explanation of how he is going to make it happen. Hopefully he is on to something that can be exported stateside. It's not impossible for a disc golfer to learn how to plan and run a big event. It's just not really the norm from my experience. I see the fact that all of our TD are players as more of that insular "disc golf by disc golfers for disc golfers" cocoon that we trap ourselves in and wonder why nobody outside our cocoon knows about us. Somebody has to think outside the cocoon. Maybe Jussi is. Maybe what he is doing can be communicated and transferred stateside. I hope it can, even though I still don't know what "it" is.

I agree, it's not impossible. However it's much harder for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum (payout structure, divisions, blah blah etc.) and are tangential to this particular thread.

I'm actually in total agreement with you, all I can really elaborate to say is Jussi is a disc golfer who is breaking the mold (one of those hard, not impossibles) and he's displaying the priorities of what is required in order to move forward. Also realize that you're not his target audience for things like that (in a good way). The bottom line is, why re-train people's paradigms in an expanding market when you can just train the newcomers in how to think about our sport - the old way of thinking eventually dies out as the minority becomes the majority. In fact, it's not even really "changing" the sport - it's growing a culture and mindset for the future, then the old ways will either adapt to the new or be slowly and steadily squeezed out. It's how society "changes" (see: public opinions on Gay Marriage, Marijuana, <insert foreign country>) over time.

So what do you see as the other half? The half I have was pieced together from conversations with several different people over a long period of time and has changed as I have gathered more information. If you have something I can add that would be great.

Forgive the phrasing, what I meant is that it's more likely that he (Jussi) has some knowledge, but not much and was asking for people like you to elaborate on the history (rather than him knowing nothing about it, and just learning for the first time when he asked in this thread). I was referencing the nuances of how he phrased the question as what was lost in translation. Make sense? Sorry if I further confused the issue.

 

[Three Putt]

Also realize that you're not his target audience for things like that (in a good way).

Just as an aside, one of the issues we have had is that we are such a small group that we hold events and try to cater to everyone. A Tiers in our current structure actually ARE trying to cater to top pros, serious amateurs, out for fun rec players and novices all in one event.

On the one hand it gives people access to top players in ways that you don't get in a lot of sports. I got to be a competitor in the same event as Barry Schultz. That on some level is cool.

For me. Not for Barry. Why would he care? Barry Schultz wants to get paid.

If the sport continues to grow (which it always has) you would hope that at some point you have a big enough pool so that you don't have to hold one event for everybody. The unknowns to me in that are a) how big do you have to get and b) how long will it take to get there. I have no answers for those.

 

[domromer]

I never did and still don't understand the need to give disc golf a professional image. Play, be happy, get more courses built. I don't see the great need for validation. It's obvious towns see it as a valid form or recreation otherwise there wouldn't be new courses popping up all the time.

 

[DanJon]

I never did and still don't understand the need to give disc golf a professional image. Play, be happy, get more courses built. I don't see the great need for validation. It's obvious towns see it as a valid form or recreation otherwise there wouldn't be new courses popping up all the time.

The professional disc golfers, and future pros, want a bigger better image so they can make more money.

 

[scarpfish]

The professional disc golfers, and future pros, want a bigger better image so they can make more money.

And yet, some of those very same people contribute to the very sordidness that is supposedly holding them back.

 

[KaBooM]

Lol...you're an angry guy, aren't you.

So what is my problem with what is happening? If somebody actually has a plan that is going to result in the spectators and revenue needed to make professional disc golf viable, I'm not going to be in the way. I've just never heard anyone tell me anything that sounds like it is going to work and when I ask WTH this "thing" is I get told that "I can't tell you any details becasue a lot of things are still in the works, but trust me something big is happening." :\ I've been told that for about 20 years, so excuse me if I'm skeptical that there is a deliberate, thoughtful business planning for the future. It sound like the same wishful thinking smoke that has been blown up my skirt for forever.

I'm not afraid of the future. I've advocated blowing up what we do and starting over for years. I've been saying for decades that shutting out the parks and recreation profession from disc golf programming is a mistake and that we as players need to loosen the grip of "disc golf by disc golfers for disc golfers" mentality that has segregated us and kept the power in the hands of the "powers that be" that you seem to think I'm afraid might lose it. That we disagree about what the future will bring is just that; a disagreement. If you have no respect for me and my opinions, whatever. Just don't put words in my mouth.

You make many good points in some of your posts. However, some of what you say is debateable to me.

You imply that the exisitng "inner circle" of disc golfers, at the local level, keep their grips and control on courses at the exclusion of local Parks and Rec and thus in the long run, the greater good of the sport/game is compromised. I don't see it this way and I believe that you are painting things with too simplified a brush. In my experience, the ideal model for a disc golf course is a partnership between the local "inner circle" (i.e., experienced "experts") and the Parks 'n Rec folks. Designing, maintaining, cultivating and upgrading a disc golf course is not at all in the wheelhouse of ~ 98% of the Parks 'n Rec departments. The PnR sweetspot is to erect tennis courts, basketball courts, softball and soccer fields. Construction, design is rather "cookie cutter" and they can easily share best practices with neighboring towns to do this task well. Some tennis courts may lend themselves to a "reservation system" (a kin to a tee time) and PnR folks can handle that well. Most of the activity on these fields/court is casual play. However, there are some members of the community that pursue competition at a higher level and these pursuits (Mens Basketball leagues, competitive youth soccer tournaments, regional tennis tournaments, etc, elite fast pitch softball) tend to gravitate to a cooperative alliance between PnR and local "inner circle" hard core enthusiasts (folks that organize, coach, play in competitive leagues and tournaments that will utilize PnR soccer, lacrosse field, basketball/tennis courts).

Ceding control to the PnR of course desing/installation in most cases (other than on those rare occassions in which a local area is fortunate to have a disc golf enthusiast who happens to also be a PnR official) would result in SIGNIFICANT decrease in the quality of the product (the course) and thus the experinece of the user. Ideally, the local disc golf club and the PnR department can form a partnership in which, over time, more "ownership" is transferred from the disc golf "inner circle" to the PnR. The annual tournaments that seek out the best competition should still, in most cases, be managed by the inner circle experts, with perhaps the PnR folks taking a role in other lower profile competitive events (assuming that they have the staff to devote to disc golf which most areas do not have, hence players and volunteers have to still do all this as a practical matter).

I believe that in CT we have a pretty good track record of creating these partnership/alliances between the local disc golf "inner circle" and the parks folks. I have seen many a course come to fruition based upon the impetus, sweat, funding (although there has been shared funding out of the gate in some instances) of the local "inner circle" enthusiasists. Then play at such courses takes off. PnR is impressed with the usage of the facility and starts taking a greater interest in care, upgrades, allowing tournaments, etc. However, none of these success stories would have occured had "control" ceding to the parks folks at too early a juncture.

Also, an area should offer a blend of courses/holes that are beginner friendly up to elite level. Ideally, through multiple tees/baskets at the same facility. However, that is not feasible everywhere. There is a quick learning curve in this game, at least from the standpoint of am players being able to huck the discs far enough to have fun playing from the "big boy" tees. While certainly there is some level of "intimidation" that some folks have spoken to, the other side of that coin is "inspiration" that takes place when newbies cross paths with people who can do amazing things with these discs and also happen to pass along a few pointers and convey that they've only themselves been playing for ~ 2 years.

I agree totally that more emphasis should be placed on instilling DG in the schools as an accepted form of recreation. However, this also requires a lot of volunteer energy, probably from the same "inner circle" that may already be spread thin. I agree that the game would be best served when tournaments are run with a conscious eye to "clean up" the hippy image (and I like hippies). However, I see nothing inherently wrong with maintaining the PDGA tour and striving to allow the elite players a forum for competing for titles and money (yes entry fees and sponsor $). More $ will ultimately flow into the game with higher participation levels. It will take time and I harbor no delusions that DG will ever become an elite professional sport, but it can still grow and improve at the professional levels.

 

[ScottyLove]

My favorite weekly TV show is the CBS Sunday Morning show. They produce little 5-7 minute stories about just any topic you can think of. I've invited them to come out to Scottsdale, AZ in late February to do a piece on disc golf at The Memorial...

Crossing my fingers and doing my part to help!

 

[Three Putt]

You make many good points in some of your posts. However, some of what you say is debateable to me.

Everything is debatable.

Parks and recreation, like anything, is hit and miss. Some places would do it better than others. Usually places with strong softball programming have people running that programming that love softball. Disc golf really hasn't done anything to encourage young disc golfers to get college degrees in parks and recreation so that people who love disc golf are inside those departments making decisions. Those people would develop the blueprint of how it is done for others to follow. Right now there is no blueprint.

 

[Three Putt]

Actually, the focus for most people I've talked to is toward private courses. If your focus is more private courses, you wouldn't bother to work with parks and recreation.