PDGA Board of Director Elections

[roblee]

I'd like to see the recent trend towards more paid professional staff in the PDGA continue to grow. The ethos of relying on volunteer labor or the passion of a few people is decades out of date and was fine for a start-up sport, but is no longer good enough. I think more paid staff doing jobs would help the PDGA put out better media, be better organized, and make the PDGA-run events go more smoothly and professionally.

This evolution is well under way. PDGA currently has at least 40 paid staff & contractors and 2 new positions announced. The net worth of the PDGA has exploded the last 2 years. They are flush now. My concern is sustainability. The covid bubble is already leaking so revenues will probably decline. Also, more employees could result in regulatory over-reach; getting involved where they don't NEED to be. Overall, things look rosy. I hope that continues. I'm looking for candidates that can do that.

 

[roblee]

Will they address the Elaine King controversy or take steps to keep the Elaines of the world from doing this again? Better yet, is she up for replacement?

I think Elaine's off-line heads up was appropriate. It's one thing a governing officer should do; alert officials/participants when they perceive something contrary to policy or regulation. Sure there was angst because it involved an innocent minor but that's not justification to ignore. It certainly would not sway me to vote against her next year if she seeks reelection.

 

[txmxer]

c'mon now don't be like that. I'm not trying to be rude. I put forward something that a "Science Group" came up with. You don't like the organization that formed the Science Group and are suggesting that it is incorrect information. I accept that is a possibility. If you're suggesting that, surely you can show me somewhere that I can read correct/further information?

Not to belabor this discussion—there is a thread in the watercooler on this subject.

There are no answers there. But, if you start looking for information regarding this subject I think you will find that it is far from conclusive and it gets more complicated the more you try to seek a definitive answer on the physical aspects.

Three Putt provided the type of guidance that I think would make the world a better place.

 

[robdeforge]

MNo, I am afraid this is indeed not enough for me. I have zero faith or interest, in basing the decisions that impact the future of my sport, on the above. What exactly are experts and specialists? This is not science. They have set standards for eligibility without ANY citation of evidence or science.

Very fair. I tried to find more information about all of that with no success.

Would you apply the same level of critique to Nova's assertions that "The science is not on your side." and "Physical transition to female destroys physical ability. We have the science to back this up, and every transgender woman has experienced this first hand." ?

I know you are not being rude. I don't think this is the right thread for this discussion.

agreed. seems like something that is probably best suited for the water cooler or another thread in the General Disc Golf Chat

Not to belabor this discussion—there is a thread in the watercooler on this subject.

There are no answers there. But, if you start looking for information regarding this subject I think you will find that it is far from conclusive and it gets more complicated the more you try to seek a definitive answer on the physical aspects.

Three Putt provided the type of guidance that I think would make the world a better place.

I don't expect to be able to find a definitive answer yet as, like you said, there isn't one (yet). I'd just like to understand all of the information/studies/etc. that people are relying upon to make their cases

 

[ru4por]

Very fair. I tried to find more information about all of that with no success.

Would you apply the same level of critique to Nova's assertions that "The science is not on your side." and "Physical transition to female destroys physical ability. We have the science to back this up, and every transgender woman has experienced this first hand." ?




agreed. seems like something that is probably best suited for the water cooler or another thread in the General Disc Golf Chat



I don't expect to be able to find a definitive answer yet as, like you said, there isn't one (yet). I'd just like to understand all of the information/studies/etc. that people are relying upon to make their cases

Yes, and I am guessing that she would want it that way. She obviously can provide first hand experience, but you are correct, that is not science either. Again, the issue has little to nothing to do with me, my drive to do more research is low. My work has provided me with a solid foundation on LGBTQ information. I don't find I have a lot of questions from there. I feel neither hate, nor fear of the LGBTQ community.

 

[uncle pennybags]

One issue I'd like to see some traction on is 'unrated' players and the division they are allowed to play in.

I mostly play c-tier so I imagine that any rules will be much less enforced there. Something that doesn't off-put new tournament players while forcing 'sandbaggers' to either get a membership/rating or play a less than desirable division.

I'm sure it's been discussed much, either here or at the PDGA, at length over the years.

So which candidate to I support to get something going on this tepid-button issue?

 

[roblee]

One issue I'd like to see some traction on is 'unrated' players and the division they are allowed to play in.

I mostly play c-tier so I imagine that any rules will be much less enforced there. Something that doesn't off-put new tournament players while forcing 'sandbaggers' to either get a membership/rating or play a less than desirable division.

I'm sure it's been discussed much, either here or at the PDGA, at length over the years.

So which candidate to I support to get something going on this tepid-button issue?

I think this was addressed in the 2017 Am Worlds. Michael Kobella from Germany won Advanced Grandmasters (MA60+). He played in Europe for years often receiving cash payouts in sanctioned professional divisions. He was not a PDGA member until he joined as an Amateur in 2015. Many thought he was ineligible to play as an Am but the PDGA (rightly) held that they don't regulate nonmembers so his previous winnings did not disqualify him as an Am. That has since been changed. See 1.10 A in the Competition Manual. "Any player accepting cash in a Pro division at a PDGA-sanctioned event (except Leagues, see 1.14.C.2) must have a PDGA number for tracking purposes prior to the start of the event (players receiving a PDGA number after event registration must alert the TD prior to the event). Non-PDGA-numbered players are only eligible for trophies, and any cash payouts at or below that place would move down one place causing an additional place to be paid." That fixes your issue as it relates to non or new members winning cash. Regarding Ams, the PDGA still does not regulate nonmember division classification as it relates to skill level as I understand it. If you've never been a member & played an event, you can't have a rating. Hopefully the RC will correct this if I'm wrong.

 

[dehaas]

How about an all encompassing generic non member division?

Let them snipe each other for vouchers until they get ratings.

One issue I'd like to see some traction on is 'unrated' players and the division they are allowed to play in.

I mostly play c-tier so I imagine that any rules will be much less enforced there. Something that doesn't off-put new tournament players while forcing 'sandbaggers' to either get a membership/rating or play a less than desirable division.

I'm sure it's been discussed much, either here or at the PDGA, at length over the years.

So which candidate to I support to get something going on this tepid-button issue?

 

[ru4por]

One issue I'd like to see some traction on is 'unrated' players and the division they are allowed to play in.

I mostly play c-tier so I imagine that any rules will be much less enforced there. Something that doesn't off-put new tournament players while forcing 'sandbaggers' to either get a membership/rating or play a less than desirable division.

I'm sure it's been discussed much, either here or at the PDGA, at length over the years.

So which candidate to I support to get something going on this tepid-button issue?

Tepid-button issue, lol...that was funny.


A TD of an AM event has the latitude to place players where they think. But, that is just not always possible. I mean, we generally have a handle on most of the non PDGA players, in our area and feel comfortable "suggesting" a division. But, there are occasional traveling player, new to the area player and just unknowns. I honestly have never seen "bagging" as a real issue. I can't think of many times I have run across it. I feel it is more often a player in the ratings spread that scores a big day....a couple big rounds. I don't know that there is a viable solution.

 

[Eds601]

That would be the end of my involvement with disc golf forever, and for most transgender women I think it would be the end for them too.

Your suggestion, which you so casually dashed off, would mean this:

On my driver's license, I'm female. On my passport, I'm female. On my birth certificate, I'm female. When I wake up in the morning, I'm female. When I look in the mirror, I see a woman. Out and about, people see a woman, and treat me as such. To my friends, I'm female. When people are doing crude sexism, I get treated as women do. All day long, every day, inside my head and in the outside world, I'm female.

Then when playing disc golf, no, I would be yanked away from my life and told "no, not here. Here in this sport you play with the men, you man." That would be colossally weird and hurtful and jarring, to be a woman 24/7, in every way in every day, but then to show up to do the one thing I love the most, and to be denied my very womanhood.

This, despite the fact that men have a colossal advantage over me, because they are stronger, have better cardio recovery, etc. Physical transition to female destroys physical ability. We have the science to back this up, and every transgender woman has experienced this first hand.

It is utterly demoralizing to be out playing with casual huckers, and to see some unrated local am bro with no grace, no form, no technique, just arm a Nuke 400' like it's nothing. For me, I need a tailwind, a perfect pull, for everything to go right, and even then I barely get that distance. A bro in jorts and a vape pen in his off hand just grabs any old disc and outdrives me, and doesn't even appreciate realize the gift he's been given in the form of thoughtlessly easy power.

And you want me to go toe-to-toe with MPO? Get bent, mate.


I have had to fight my ass off to be who I am. I have lost more than you will ever know in the process. I have to re-litigate my very existence and very identity nearly constantly, and I do it because it's who I am. I will never not be me, no matter how many people try to tell me otherwise.

What is a casual and painless experience for you, calling me out and trying to deny my reality, is just one part of a never-ending stream that only stops coming at me when I am asleep or alone. You just casually dismiss transgender women and then move on with your day. For me, it never ends.

I have made disc golf my passion for the past seven years. It's all I do, and you want to just end it for me, without even knowing who I am. I will fight you, forever, because I have been fighting people like you forever. It's all I know anymore.

I will have peace only when I am dead, and it's because of people like you.

I'm so glad you posted this. The same feelings you have against playing with MPO are the same feelings I have against competing with transgender women. Transgender women have an advantage. We now have peer reviewed studies that prove it.

I don't want anyone to quit playing a sport they love, but I do want to find a solution that is fair to both cisgender women and transwomen.

 

[roblee]

Here are the last 4 candidates.

Nicholas Engleman #108432. Emphasis: Played a lot of tournaments. The game is growing in the right direction. Priorities: Tune the rules & remove the gray areas.

Jordan Adams #144078. Emphasis: Service industry veteran. Personnel & inventory management. Customer service & event coordination. Club officer, course maintenance, event volunteer, & TD. Priorities: Grow school & youth programs. Increase involvement of local departments with course upkeep. Increase support for clubs & low-tier events.

Anthony Davis #147833. Emphasis: Nonstop player & local TD. Worked in finance. Priorities: GTS. Listen to you. Support youth. More diversity in gender, race, & orientation.

Phillip Mills #151411. This election is for Global Board of Directors so Phillip's 7 page statement is obviously a World Record. Emphasis: CPA. Financial standardization, asset & resource mgt., membership support, financial audits, financial & standards instructor. Player & volunteer. Priorities: Financial details. Reevaluate division classifications to allow inclusivity & insure fair competition. Reasonable rule changes (DROT), Best practices for prohibited substances & fairness for gender-based divisions. Promote legal gambling. Prevent financial fraud. Analyze conflicts of interest. Outreach.

For those interested in voting look at the full statements in the link of post 1. I've only presented a snapshot. There were 18,265 votes last year for 3 positions. The winning tallies were 9,140; 7,546; 6,806. If you want a voice simply vote.

 

[ru4por]

Here are the last 4 candidates.

Nicholas Engleman #108432. Emphasis: Played a lot of tournaments. The game is growing in the right direction. Priorities: Tune the rules & remove the gray areas.

Jordan Adams #144078. Emphasis: Service industry veteran. Personnel & inventory management. Customer service & event coordination. Club officer, course maintenance, event volunteer, & TD. Priorities: Grow school & youth programs. Increase involvement of local departments with course upkeep. Increase support for clubs & low-tier events.

Anthony Davis #147833. Emphasis: Nonstop player & local TD. Worked in finance. Priorities: GTS. Listen to you. Support youth. More diversity in gender, race, & orientation.

Phillip Mills #151411. This election is for Global Board of Directors so Phillip's 7 page statement is obviously a World Record. Emphasis: CPA. Financial standardization, asset & resource mgt., membership support, financial audits, financial & standards instructor. Player & volunteer. Priorities: Financial details. Reevaluate division classifications to allow inclusivity & insure fair competition. Reasonable rule changes (DROT), Best practices for prohibited substances & fairness for gender-based divisions. Promote legal gambling. Prevent financial fraud. Analyze conflicts of interest. Outreach.

For those interested in voting look at the full statements in the link of post 1. I've only presented a snapshot. There were 18,265 votes last year for 3 positions. The winning tallies were 9,140; 7,546; 6,806. If you want a voice simply vote.

Thanks again for this!

 

[ru4por]

I'm so glad you posted this. The same feelings you have against playing with MPO are the same feelings I have against competing with transgender women. Transgender women have an advantage. We now have peer reviewed studies that prove it.

I don't want anyone to quit playing a sport they love, but I do want to find a solution that is fair to both cisgender women and transwomen.

I admit to having done little research on the science of proven advantages. I would love to read your peer reviewed research studies on this topic and where to find sound sources for this information.

I am not convinced your feelings are the same, but it does seem you feel slighted by getting beat. I don't think transgender athletes are not interesting in playing in men's (or mixed) divisions, for fear of getting beat.

 

[Hampstead]

First post in 3 1/2 years here?


Another nobody worth acknowledging.

 

[Eds601]

Getting beat isn't the issue….

I admit to having done little research on the science of proven advantages. I would love to read your peer reviewed research studies on this topic and where to find sound sources for this information.

I am not convinced your feelings are the same, but it does seem you feel slighted by getting beat. I don't think transgender athletes are not interesting in playing in men's (or mixed) divisions, for fear of getting beat.

I don't have an issue with getting beat. I get beat by plenty of men and women. The issue is fairness. Nova stated that she doesn't feel playing in the MPO division is fair because men have physical advantages to her. I don't feel like trans women playing in FPO is fair because they have physical advantages. The 2 links below are studies done. They did notice changes in trans women but measurements were still higher that cisgender after 36 months. It also mentioned muscle memory and some other things that are quite interesting.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

 

[txmxer]

I don't have an issue with getting beat. I get beat by plenty of men and women. The issue is fairness. Nova stated that she doesn't feel playing in the MPO division is fair because men have physical advantages to her. I don't feel like trans women playing in FPO is fair because they have physical advantages. The 2 links below are studies done. They did notice changes in trans women but measurements were still higher that cisgender after 36 months. It also mentioned muscle memory and some other things that are quite interesting.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

you have 2 posts since joining in 2018. They are both on this subject. Seems odd.

As as far as "science" goes, how could one possibly have an adequate amount of study on an issue the impacts such a small fraction of the population? Meaning, how many trans women have been evaluated post puberty and prior to any transitioning and then subsequently evaluated? The sample selection would be infinitesimally small if any exists at all.

The only place this might have occurred is Dr. Moreau's island. I'm not even arguing that your assertion is incorrect, just that I don't believe ANY of the assertions being made with regards to those in transition.

And to your issue--how many trans women do you play DG with?

Me thinks me smells something rotten.

 

[Eds601]

Nothing odd…

I find that many women are scared to voice their opinion on this topic so when it's being discussed I like to chime in. I'm heavily involved in my local scene but I don't really follow these forums usually.

You guys ask for peer reviewed research so I give it to you….. but then it's not good enough. Lol. Maybe we should all just use common sense. If you've benefited from testosterone for 20+ years….. it doesn't really make sense that suppressing it for a year will erase all the benefits.

Ive done my duty and provided research. Have a good night and try reading that research it might enlighten you.

 

[txmxer]

I find that many women are scared to voice their opinion on this topic so when it's being discussed I like to chime in. I'm heavily involved in my local scene but I don't really follow these forums usually.

You guys ask for peer reviewed research so I give it to you….. but then it's not good enough. Lol. Maybe we should all just use common sense. If you've benefited from testosterone for 20+ years….. it doesn't really make sense that suppressing it for a year will erase all the benefits.

Ive done my duty and provided research. Have a good night and try reading that research it might enlighten you.

Let me put this more succinctly. YOU are a liar. Have a good night.

 

[txmxer]

I find that many women are scared to voice their opinion on this topic so when it's being discussed I like to chime in. I'm heavily involved in my local scene but I don't really follow these forums usually.

You guys ask for peer reviewed research so I give it to you….. but then it's not good enough. Lol. Maybe we should all just use common sense. If you've benefited from testosterone for 20+ years….. it doesn't really make sense that suppressing it for a year will erase all the benefits.

Ive done my duty and provided research. Have a good night and try reading that research it might enlighten you.

I doubt you have actually read the research you have presented.

 

[Monocacy]

I doubt you have actually read the research you have presented.

I skimmed the two linked articles. Did you?