PDGA Board of Director Elections

[DeanMoriarty]

Disc golf is the one sport where gender/sex honestly doesn't matter if you can whip a disc really hard.

People acting like throwing a disc in this sport really far requires 100% man muscle to accomplish decent distance which isn't true by any stretch.

 

[uncle pennybags]

Tepid-button issue, lol...that was funny.


A TD of an AM event has the latitude to place players where they think. But, that is just not always possible. I mean, we generally have a handle on most of the non PDGA players, in our area and feel comfortable "suggesting" a division. But, there are occasional traveling player, new to the area player and just unknowns. I honestly have never seen "bagging" as a real issue. I can't think of many times I have run across it. I feel it is more often a player in the ratings spread that scores a big day....a couple big rounds. I don't know that there is a viable solution.

I think that the majority of TD's are doing the right thing with getting players matched to divisions. But there is just enough of TD's that aren't really interested in matching players to the division they belong in. Some if this is just laziness, but some is just letting buddies/local crew do what they want. I do believe that it is less bad since the 2020 explosion, but there is still some low quality TD's in more rural areas that basically DGAF as they are the only game in the area.

You are right there is no simple solution. I wonder if some kind of review process for TD's or tournaments might help. The only downside to an open review process is the can of worms that would open.

 

[biscoe]

I think that the majority of TD's are doing the right thing with getting players matched to divisions. But there is just enough of TD's that aren't really interested in matching players to the division they belong in. Some if this is just laziness, but some is just letting buddies/local crew do what they want. I do believe that it is less bad since the 2020 explosion, but there is still some low quality TD's in more rural areas that basically DGAF as they are the only game in the area.

You are right there is no simple solution. I wonder if some kind of review process for TD's or tournaments might help. The only downside to an open review process is the can of worms that would open.

Please cite an example of player competing in the "wrong" division more than once. I don't see it happening around here.

 

[txmxer]

I skimmed the two linked articles. Did you?

I read them.

Meta analysis of others research. While potentially valuable, also the most subjective version of research.

 

[oddjob]

Disc golf is the one sport where gender/sex honestly doesn't matter if you can whip a disc really hard.

People acting like throwing a disc in this sport really far requires 100% man muscle to accomplish decent distance which isn't true by any stretch.

Then why have any female protected divisions?

 

[robdeforge]

I read them.

Meta analysis of others research. While potentially valuable, also the most subjective version of research.

curious to hear your thoughts on: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/#!po=0.378788

are you aware of any articles/studies I can read that come to the conclusion that male to female transitioned individuals do not retrain some muscular advantages after transitioning and hormonal treatments?

(If you'd rather respond to me privately or move this discussion to a different thread please feel free to do so, I tried to find an appropriate thread in the water cooler for this but wasn't able to do so)

Disc golf is the one sport where gender/sex honestly doesn't matter if you can whip a disc really hard.

People acting like throwing a disc in this sport really far requires 100% man muscle to accomplish decent distance which isn't true by any stretch.

if gender/sex doesn't matter, wouldn't you expect to see an equal distribution of male and female players rated above 1000?

 

[PennedStarValkyrie]

First post in 3 1/2 years here?


Another nobody worth acknowledging.

Gatekeeping at its finest. Someone doesn't have to be on this forum 24/7 to have a valid opinion.

As as far as "science" goes, how could one possibly have an adequate amount of study on an issue the impacts such a small fraction of the population? Meaning, how many trans women have been evaluated post puberty and prior to any transitioning and then subsequently evaluated? The sample selection would be infinitesimally small if any exists at all.

If there isn't sufficient evidence, then the default should be to put them in the division based on their gender at birth. But we all know there is an advantage, statistically its impossible for Nova to be a 5x world champion and Ryan to be consistently in the top 10 when they represent such a small percentage of the population.

YOU are a liar

Name calling now?

 

[PennedStarValkyrie]

Looks like he got an immediate banning. Hard to argue with that.

Ban anyone that disagrees with you. That's not very tolerant.

 

[Streets]

Ban anyone that disagrees with you. That's not very tolerant.

GMcAtee was banned for posting a bigoted insult...not a "disagreement."

 

[dehaas]

Soooooooo what about the dude with prior NBA marketing skillz from last year's election?

It's been a year already, he must be slacking on his dg rich visions?

 

[txmxer]

Name calling now?

I'm saying the OP initially claimed to be a female that is competing against trans women (plural) and feels that is unfair.

Then the OP stated that they are speaking for women who are afraid to speak out.

This after having created an account 2018 and their first post is in regards to trans athletes.

I believe that person is being dishonest, i.e., lying.

 

[ru4por]

I find that many women are scared to voice their opinion on this topic so when it's being discussed I like to chime in. I'm heavily involved in my local scene but I don't really follow these forums usually.

You guys ask for peer reviewed research so I give it to you….. but then it's not good enough. Lol. Maybe we should all just use common sense. If you've benefited from testosterone for 20+ years….. it doesn't really make sense that suppressing it for a year will erase all the benefits.

Ive done my duty and provided research. Have a good night and try reading that research it might enlighten you.

I still only read that your objection is losing. I do not want to speak for Nova or any member of the trans community. But, her voiced objection to playing in mixed divisions is why? She is not male. Why would you or anyone get to tell her to play in a division, other than the one she is qualified for? As a TD, I have no business telling a 858 rated player that they must play AM1. Simply because an AM3 player is uncomfortable with how far they throw? The PDGA has standards to qualify to play in the female divisions. These are the IOC guidelines. (someone correct me if I am wrong). Your first citation initiates it's abstract with the following.

Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized.

This article does cobble together the work of several studies, but does not really present a comprehensive conclusion that applies. It partly concludes the following.

Currently, there is no consensus on an acceptable degree of residual advantage held by transgender women that would be tolerable in the female category of sport. There is significant dispute over this issue, especially since the physiological determinants of performance vary across different sporting disciplines.

The second citation introduces the following caveat to the study.

To date, there have been no prospective studies investigating the changes in athletic performance in transgender athletes after hormonal transition

And concludes with this point, which stood out to me.

It is possible that transwomen competing in sports may retain strength advantages over cisgender women, even after 3 years of hormone therapy.

Interesting articles. Both are indeed literature reviews. I admit to not spending the time to review many of the sources and doing the necessary background, personal research needed to really critically assess the articles.

I am sticking with the PDGA in following guidelines set forth by the IOC. As I stated below, the IOC does not have a much better reputation than FINA, though.

Trans athletes in disc golf are not playing their own division because it gives them a competitive edge. They are playing it because that is where they belong. I cannot see myself, ever having the audacity, to suggest anyone play in a division other than the one they qualify for.

 

[ru4por]

curious to hear your thoughts on: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/#!po=0.378788

are you aware of any articles/studies I can read that come to the conclusion that male to female transitioned individuals do not retrain some muscular advantages after transitioning and hormonal treatments?

(If you'd rather respond to me privately or move this discussion to a different thread please feel free to do so, I tried to find an appropriate thread in the water cooler for this but wasn't able to do so)



if gender/sex doesn't matter, wouldn't you expect to see an equal distribution of male and female players rated above 1000?

This study has been previously presented in the literature review below. This part of the abstract seem crucial to any PDGA discussion.

Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized.

I believe that there is going to be little available research that clearly demonstrates any advantage or lack thereof. The citations I have read here don't really present a clear picture. Available data is very scant, I would imagine. Finding enough qualified athletes, currently meeting IOC requirements is likely a low number.

 

[PennedStarValkyrie]

She is not male.

But they are male; that is the crux of the issue.

I implore anyone reading this that wishes to restore fairness to FPO to vote for Mr. Michael Munn or Mr. Robby Harris in the upcoming board of directors vote July 1st.

 

[ru4por]

Gatekeeping at its finest. Someone doesn't have to be on this forum 24/7 to have a valid opinion.



If there isn't sufficient evidence, then the default should be to put them in the division based on their gender at birth. But we all know there is an advantage, statistically its impossible for Nova to be a 5x world champion and Ryan to be consistently in the top 10 when they represent such a small percentage of the population.



Name calling now?

We all don't know anything. You are simply stating your opinion.

Hmmm.....I mean, we all have an opinion, this one was very popular decades ago. :\

 

[Streets]

But they are male; that is the crux of the issue.

I implore anyone reading this that wishes to restore fairness to FPO to vote for Mr. Michael Munn or Mr. Robby Harris in the upcoming board of directors vote July 1st.

You seem to have an obsession with this topic...all 7 of your posts involve you spouting your unwelcome bigotry in an otherwise respectful discussion.

 

[Three Putt]

I don't have an issue with getting beat. I get beat by plenty of men and women. The issue is fairness. Nova stated that she doesn't feel playing in the MPO division is fair because men have physical advantages to her. I don't feel like trans women playing in FPO is fair because they have physical advantages. The 2 links below are studies done. They did notice changes in trans women but measurements were still higher that cisgender after 36 months. It also mentioned muscle memory and some other things that are quite interesting.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

I don't want to put words in Nova's mouth, but I doubt the reason she doesn't want to play MPO is because she would be at a competitive disadvantage.

I've known quite a few transgender folks for some unknown reason (I literally live in the boondocks) and the reoccurring theme is acceptance. They know who they are. There is a whole World full of GMcAtee's and BrotherDave's out there that will never accept them, and they know that. It's a battle they have to fight their whole lives individual by individual.

For most of their history, that lack of acceptance was systemic. If they went out and were minding their own business, anyone could notice them and yell "That chick is a dude" and suddenly it would be open season for abuse of them while people like me stood around and did nothing about it. Non-acceptance of them was the default.

So only in the last maybe decade has that shifted. They don't have to hide and hope no one notices them. If somebody yells "That chick is a dude" now it's more likely that others will tell that person to shut up. It opens up the World in a lot of way; they can go places now and be who they know they are. More of us realize that they are not someone to be feared or hated or condemned. They are just a person. A lot of the systemic barriers for them to live their lives have come down.

So as part of that shift it's OK to go out and do things. It's OK to let their Frisbee freak flag fly and they can join a disc golf club and not be ostracized like they would have been only a few years ago. They don't have to give up that sense of belonging to groups and hide just so they can be who they know they are.

But now suddenly after making a lot of gains, they are the target. Right-wing groups failed in the attacks on gay marriage, so they changed the tactics and have put transgender people in the crosshairs. So now people show up and want to tell people like Nova that "Just kidding, we don't really accept you" on a disc golf-wide level. You are talking about reinstating the systemic barriers to her being able to live her life.

We act like it's a sports fairness issue, but we all know that's just the cover. The attempt to drive transgender people out of mainstream America and back to the shadows where they hide in fear of being discovered is going to go WAAAYYY past restricting them from playing sports. So if you are going to take the side of telling them they can't play sports (because they are not going to go compete as a man, that's ridiculous on multiple levels) you better figure out where your line in the sand is on how far you are going to support measures to discriminate against them.

tl;dr: "doesn't feel playing in the MPO division is fair because men have physical advantages to her" misses the point of what is really going on here. Focusing on this myth that somehow all athletic competition can be "fair" (hint: it's not now and ever has been) is how they are getting you to buy into an agenda of discrimination.

 

[Nova P]

I don't want to put words in Nova's mouth,

You have my permission. You have proven time and time again to know what you are talking about, and sometimes you know what I am talking about even better than I do myself.

but I doubt the reason she doesn't want to play MPO is because she would be at a competitive disadvantage.

I've known quite a few transgender folks for some unknown reason (I literally live in the boondocks) and the reoccurring theme is acceptance. They know who they are. There is a whole World full of GMcAtee's and BrotherDave's out there that will never accept them, and they know that. It's a battle they have to fight their whole lives individual by individual.

For most of their history, that lack of acceptance was systemic. If they went out and were minding their own business, anyone could notice them and yell "That chick is a dude" and suddenly it would be open season for abuse of them while people like me stood around and did nothing about it. Non-acceptance of them was the default.

So only in the last maybe decade has that shifted. They don't have to hide and hope no one notices them. If somebody yells "That chick is a dude" now it's more likely that others will tell that person to shut up. It opens up the World in a lot of way; they can go places now and be who they know they are. More of us realize that they are not someone to be feared or hated or condemned. They are just a person. A lot of the systemic barriers for them to live their lives have come down.

So as part of that shift it's OK to go out and do things. It's OK to let their Frisbee freak flag fly and they can join a disc golf club and not be ostracized like they would have been only a few years ago. They don't have to give up that sense of belonging to groups and hide just so they can be who they know they are.

But now suddenly after making a lot of gains, they are the target. Right-wing groups failed in the attacks on gay marriage, so they changed the tactics and have put transgender people in the crosshairs. So now people show up and want to tell people like Nova that "Just kidding, we don't really accept you" on a disc golf-wide level. You are talking about reinstating the systemic barriers to her being able to live her life.

We act like it's a sports fairness issue, but we all know that's just the cover. The attempt to drive transgender people out of mainstream America and back to the shadows where they hide in fear of being discovered is going to go WAAAYYY past restricting them from playing sports. So if you are going to take the side of telling them they can't play sports (because they are not going to go compete as a man, that's ridiculous on multiple levels) you better figure out where your line in the sand is on how far you are going to support measures to discriminate against them.

tl;dr: "doesn't feel playing in the MPO division is fair because men have physical advantages to her" misses the point of what is really going on here. Focusing on this myth that somehow all athletic competition can be "fair" (hint: it's not now and ever has been) is how they are getting you to buy into an agenda of discrimination.

Absolutely nailed it. Could not have said it better myself. :clap:

 

[Three Putt]

Folks, we have two ban hammers in this thread from misgendering. There is a line. You can state your opinions in a respectful way without going over that line. If you choose to go over the line, you will get what you have coming.

To be clear, I am not infringing on your freedom of speech. I'm infringing on your ability to be a thoughtless ***hole. There is a difference. Learn it.

 

[txmxer]

curious to hear your thoughts on: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/#!po=0.378788

are you aware of any articles/studies I can read that come to the conclusion that male to female transitioned individuals do not retrain some muscular advantages after transitioning and hormonal treatments?

(If you'd rather respond to me privately or move this discussion to a different thread please feel free to do so, I tried to find an appropriate thread in the water cooler for this but wasn't able to do so)

Same study that Eds linked.

Whilst available evidence is strong and convincing that strength, skeletal- and muscle-mass derived advantages will largely remain after cross-hormone therapy in transgender women, it is acknowledged that the findings presented here are from healthy adults with regular or even low physical activity levels [91], and not highly trained athletes. Thus, further research is required in athletic transgender populations.

After the thread in the water cooler, I chose to look in to this a bit further. What I kept finding was a lot of debunking of the traditional thinking (or common sense) as Eds stated above.

But it's a huge rabbit hole. In order to evaluate the statement that one has an unfair advantage we first need to define the allowable parameters for those that fit the "fair" category. There are a lot of CIS women that compete that would push those boundaries. Hence my statement of rabbit hole or maybe bottomless pit is more appropriate.

Maybe a separate thread is appropriate. But, I don't think it should be a taboo subject that we can't have a discussion about.

I still refer back to what 3P said here (closed thread, but you can read it), it gave me a lot to think about:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140460&highlight=paula+mcbeth&page=3