PDGA World Championships 2022

[araytx]

Regarding the OB line on 16...

A water line almost should never be the line. Water lines can change throughout a day with evaporation or rains. I've also seen waves on water creating confusion (not at 16 ECC). Not to mention pool play so you could have someone playing it one way on 11 AM on Tuesday and then someone else playing it at 6PM on Wednesday.

The lines, per PDGA policy, MUST be painted 4 days prior to round 1 for a world championship. It's impossible to know on the Thursday literally 11 days before the final round where the water will end up being. It's a guess at that point.

At the end of the day, the line was there and was the exact same for every competitor and is hands down the fairest way.

Nick Carl suggested it would be better without the wall, basket closer to centered and a fixed OB circle.

I kind of like that idea. Thoughts?

It used to be without the wall some years back. Much more rewarding as a viewer to see someone stick it onto the island then, but not sure about a better hole or not. Of course, define "better"... I guess I am talking about score separation. A lot more players went to the DZ then for sure. It was a 2, 3 or 4 score anyway then too, depending on where you landed. Perhaps a few more 2s nowadays thanks to the wall although usually hitting the wall seems to leave you with a death putt. Which IMO is a fair tradeoff by being saved by the wall.

Yes absolutely. It used to be no wall and the pin was center island. Enough times, though, of throws looking like they were good hitting the island softly and then rolling off the back of said island got people complaining about that as well. Plus with the wind that is usually there, the wall was added so as to not penalize those throws -- but the pin was then moved to the front to re-claim some of the risk/reward. And I promise you (from playing it many times) the OS low liner trying to hit the wall is easier said than done! Much more difficult than it sounds. I've found it best to do the same (even back then) that today's guy's do -- try to hyzer onto it as far right as you can (or opposite for LHBH)

On top of that, back in the days when ECC hole #1 was right off the back of the clubhouse, the island hole was #18, not 16. It was changed in 2018 I believe. Talk about pressure! Go back and check GBO's from 2016 or before. (2017 GBO final round was rain drench cancelled)

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Yes absolutely. It used to be no wall and the pin was center island. Enough times, though, of throws looking like they were good hitting the island softly and then rolling off the back of said island got people complaining about that as well. Plus with the wind that is usually there, the wall was added so as to not penalize those throws -- but the pin was then moved to the front to re-claim some of the risk/reward. And I promise you (from playing it many times) the OS low liner trying to hit the wall is easier said than done! Much more difficult than it sounds. I've found it best to do the same (even back then) that today's guy's do -- try to hyzer onto it as far right as you can (or opposite for LHBH)

On top of that, back in the days when ECC hole #1 was right off the back of the clubhouse, the island hole was #18, not 16. It was changed in 2018 I believe. Talk about pressure! Go back and check GBO's from 2016 or before. (2017 GBO final round was rain drench cancelled)

So back in the day, the hole played as Nick Carl suggested. People weren't happy with it, so they added the wall, and moved the basket forward so you can't just throw darts at the wall and get rewarded with fairly low risk birdies opportunities.

Fair 'nuff.

If you you really want to go for a birdie, current config requires risk of going OB on either:
a) Tee shot: because you're trying to park the drive to avoid death putt.
b) Death putt.

 

[Arisugawa]

So back in the day, the hole played as Nick Carl suggested. People weren't happy with it, so they added the wall, and moved the basket forward so you can't just throw darts at the wall and get rewarded with fairly low risk birdies opportunities.

It wasn't just about "not being happy with it." A not-so-small number of competitors in both MPO and FPO would lay up to the stretch of land on the right near the drop zone and play for the par. The wall was put in to encourage competitors to try for the island off the tee instead of taking the safer route.

And in general - this was a successful gambit. Fewer players lay up on hole 16 now as they know they have a better chance at sticking the island with the wall.

And hitting that wall, by the way, isn't easy. Depending on the wind or conditions of the ground, it is possible to fly or skip over it. It really isn't as simple as throwing darts at it, even at the elite tier.

 

[Shallows]

Maybe we can adopt the VAR offside system for telling whether a disc made the island or not.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

It wasn't just about "not being happy with it." A not-so-small number of competitors in both MPO and FPO would lay up to the stretch of land on the right near the drop zone and play for the par. The wall was put in to encourage competitors to try for the island off the tee instead of taking the safer route.

And in general - this was a successful gambit. Fewer players lay up on hole 16 now as they know they have a better chance at sticking the island with the wall.

And hitting that wall, by the way, isn't easy. Depending on the wind or conditions of the ground, it is possible to fly or skip over it. It really isn't as simple as throwing darts at it, even at the elite tier.

Genuinely appreciate feedback from someone who's played it. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[Arisugawa]

Genuinely appreciate feedback from someone who's played it. Thanks for setting me straight.

To be fair, I've only played it from the tee pad to the side, which FPO has traditionally used in the past. Cuts off a bit of distance. I was able forehand a Pyro to the island near the pin without needing to go to the wall. This was during the round where I played with Deann Carey and Kona Panis, and Deann aced it.

It's harder teeing off from the dock tee pad. Different distance, different angles, and even different wind.

 

[txmxer]

To be fair, I've only played it from the tee pad to the side, which FPO has traditionally used in the past. Cuts off a bit of distance. I was able forehand a Pyro to the island near the pin without needing to go to the wall. This was during the round where I played with Deann Carey and Kona Panis, and Deann aced it.

It's harder teeing off from the dock tee pad. Different distance, different angles, and even different wind.

The wind factor seems to be significant. For the most part, the wind was not significant during worlds this year, but normally is, and on the island it's even more so (apparently)

 

[Jolt]

It wasn't just about "not being happy with it." A not-so-small number of competitors in both MPO and FPO would lay up to the stretch of land on the right near the drop zone and play for the par. The wall was put in to encourage competitors to try for the island off the tee instead of taking the safer route.

And in general - this was a successful gambit. Fewer players lay up on hole 16 now as they know they have a better chance at sticking the island with the wall.

And hitting that wall, by the way, isn't easy. Depending on the wind or conditions of the ground, it is possible to fly or skip over it. It really isn't as simple as throwing darts at it, even at the elite tier.

This is why i asked if Paul even thought about laying up in the playoff. . . all he needed was a par and the layup seems like the safer way to do it, not much safer...but safer

 

[txmxer]

This is why i asked if Paul even thought about laying up in the playoff. . . all he needed was a par and the layup seems like the safer way to do it, not much safer...but safer

Why does it seem safer? You think he practiced laying up on #16?

 

[Jolt]

Why does it seem safer? You think he practiced laying up on #16?

Quik calc. and it look like 25% of the players missed the island in that last round...so it IS a risky shot.
Is the layup safer/easier? I really dont know but looking at the hole it looks easier/safer.

But did he practice that shot.. maybe not, i do think he practiced the DZ.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Me no like that math. Look at the % of >1040 rated players that missed the island and lets talk

 

[Jolt]

Me no like that math. Look at the % of >1040 rated players that missed the island and lets talk

Tru but the most important factor IS that the other player in the playoff missed. . so now Paul HAD a choice...did he even think about it?
I´m not saying he should have layed up, i just wonder if he ever saw that as an option.
but i´m sure that IF Paul would have missed the island the talk about laying up would be loud and many paiges long.

But in the end i dont think Paul ever thought about it. . IF AG should have made the DZ putt Paul had options playing like he did. . and if Paul would have missed the island. . well just go to the next hole and try again.

 

[Arisugawa]

This is why i asked if Paul even thought about laying up in the playoff. . . all he needed was a par and the layup seems like the safer way to do it, not much safer...but safer

The wall changes the percentages that you will land on the island. Without the wall, it was very, very easy to overshoot the island or skip off the back side of it. So, prior to the wall, a lot of players laid up because it was much harder to stick the island without it.

The rest of this is my own conjecture -

Paul goes for the island because worst-case scenario, in his mind, he ties Aaron from the drop zone if he misses. They go 4 / 4 and move on to hole 17. Best case, he makes the putt from the drop zone, and wins the event right there.

In his mind, Aaron is already shooting 4.

However, the drop zone is a fixed position. Sticking the landing on the zone on the right is a variable position. You can land a bit too far back, or in a place where the branches from the nearby tree provides an obstruction.

If you go OB after your layup, you're basically getting a double bogey: 1 stroke for the first shot, 2 for the second, 3 for the OB, 4 for the next pitchup, and 5 for the putt.

Messing up the second shot is absolutely possible, and doing so is the end of the tournament.

So, think of it this way. Prior to the wall, players were largely balancing the easier 3 vs. the likely 4, and the two was a bonus get. After the wall, players are now looking at a likely 2 or 3 vs. an unfortunate 4. The wall changes the odds and the risk.

 

[txmxer]

Another thought about 16–maybe some of the landscaping gurus could comment.

With water levels down, it seems like an opportunity to stabilize the island and minimize future erosion. Do a layer of spray concrete between the normal water line and the current low level.

Has the added benefit of being a permanent and explicit OB line.

 

[Steve West]

...Do a layer of spray concrete between the normal water line and the current low level.

Has the added benefit of being a permanent and explicit OB line.

Plus think of all the fun to be had watching golf balls bounce off of that in all directions without losing much speed.



"NEGATIVE FORE!"

 

[Rastnav]

Tru but the most important factor IS that the other player in the playoff missed. . so now Paul HAD a choice...did he even think about it?
I´m not saying he should have layed up, i just wonder if he ever saw that as an option.
but i´m sure that IF Paul would have missed the island the talk about laying up would be loud and many paiges long.

But in the end i dont think Paul ever thought about it. . IF AG should have made the DZ putt Paul had options playing like he did. . and if Paul would have missed the island. . well just go to the next hole and try again.

The wall changes the percentages that you will land on the island. Without the wall, it was very, very easy to overshoot the island or skip off the back side of it. So, prior to the wall, a lot of players laid up because it was much harder to stick the island without it.

The rest of this is my own conjecture -

Paul goes for the island because worst-case scenario, in his mind, he ties Aaron from the drop zone if he misses. They go 4 / 4 and move on to hole 17. Best case, he makes the putt from the drop zone, and wins the event right there.

In his mind, Aaron is already shooting 4.

However, the drop zone is a fixed position. Sticking the landing on the zone on the right is a variable position. You can land a bit too far back, or in a place where the branches from the nearby tree provides an obstruction.

If you go OB after your layup, you're basically getting a double bogey: 1 stroke for the first shot, 2 for the second, 3 for the OB, 4 for the next pitchup, and 5 for the putt.

Messing up the second shot is absolutely possible, and doing so is the end of the tournament.

So, think of it this way. Prior to the wall, players were largely balancing the easier 3 vs. the likely 4, and the two was a bonus get. After the wall, players are now looking at a likely 2 or 3 vs. an unfortunate 4. The wall changes the odds and the risk.

Paul laying up is exactly the situation he had against Conrad in 2021.

Except the odds that Gossage makes that DZ putt are at least a couple of magnitudes greater.

Effing no way is Paul laying up again.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Yeah there was no way Paul was laying up, he learned that lesson.

Laying up is a half ass shot, it's inspired by fear or lack of confidence. It starts off as a tactical decision.. but how many times have "you" looked at your past rounds and thought "damn I should have just gone for it" instead of fluffing out a crappy layup?

Paul has been remembering that "layup" all year

 

[ThrowBot]

Tru but the most important factor IS that the other player in the playoff missed. . so now Paul HAD a choice...did he even think about it?

I doubt it. He had just 3 holes earlier landed the island with full "World Title on the line" pressure. Why change up the game plan when you just executed the island shot in almost identical conditions?

 

[txmxer]

Plus think of all the fun to be had watching golf balls bounce off of that in all directions without losing much speed.



"NEGATIVE FORE!"

Is that a ball golf hole as well? With that slope, it would be a nightmare.

 

[Rastnav]

Is that a ball golf hole as well? With that slope, it would be a nightmare.

There is no way it's currently a ball golf hole. It would need to be a green, which it most definitely is not.

Maybe it was at some point, though.