Pet Peeve: foot fault run ups

[Cgkdisc]

Cite me where the A practice throw is only for stance issues, etc and that the foot fault and other stance rules don't have how to handle them.

I've literally never heard anyone ever make this argument. Ever.

The "Practice Throw" is not for stance violations if you look at the definition. But a stance violation has to be called by another player for your improper throw to not be considered a practice throw. I realize it's an unusual call to claim a practice throw. But check with the RC if a player can still call a practice throw if they know they slipped up and the members of their group do not call it a stance violation.

 

[_MTL_]

The "Practice Throw" is not for stance violations if you look at the definition. But a stance violation has to be called by another player for your improper throw to not be considered a practice throw. I realize it's an unusual call to claim a practice throw. But check with the RC if a player can still call a practice throw if they know they slipped up and the members of their group do not call it a stance violation.

Next time I want to use an optional re-throw I'll be sure to inform my group my footing was bad and I'll be doing that instead of taking a penalty.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Next time I want to use an optional re-throw I'll be sure to inform my group my footing was bad and I'll be doing that instead of taking a penalty.

No problem as long as you make the call while on your lie right after your mis-throw. If you advance forward to look at where your shot landed, it's too late to call the practice throw just like it would be too late for another player to call a stance violation or practice throw. At that point, you must take the Optional Re-throw with penalty.

From a practical standpoint, why shouldn't a player be allowed to call an immediate 1-throw penalty on their score and throw again from the same lie right away? We're sitting here discussing warnings and who should be able to call them or if they should be allowed. It should be a no-brainer for a player to throw again right away from the same lie counting the previous throw on their score.

 

[_MTL_]

No problem as long as you make the call while on your lie right after your mis-throw. If you advance forward to look at where your shot landed, it's too late to call the practice throw just like it would be too late for another player to call a stance violation or practice throw. At that point, you must take the Optional Re-throw with penalty.

Where in the rules does it say that an optional re-throw kicks in after you leave your lie and if you stay there it's a practice throw?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Where in the rules does it say that an optional re-throw kicks in after you leave your lie and if you stay there it's a practice throw?

When you have a stance violation doesn't the clock start again for your re-throw? Likewise, doesn't the clock start once a practice throw is called? These calls are supposed to be made soon after recognizing the infraction. You are correct that the RC removed the previous rule statement about calling stance violations or even practice throws in a timely manner.

As a TD I doubt you would allow players to wait and call a stance violation or practice throw on a player a few holes later where the player should get a 2-throw misplay penalty because it wasn't called while playing the hole. It's a case where the RC has now implied "common sense" (whether right or wrong) on how quickly these calls should be made without specifying a specific time.

 

[Steve West]

Where in the rules does it say that an optional re-throw kicks in after you leave your lie and if you stay there it's a practice throw?

No where, that's where.

 

[Steve West]

...As a TD I doubt you would allow players to wait and call a stance violation or practice throw on a player a few holes later where the player should get a 2-throw misplay penalty because it wasn't called while playing the hole. It's a case where the RC has now implied "common sense" (whether right or wrong) on how quickly these calls should be made without specifying a specific time.

Penalty throws may be assessed at whatever time the infraction is discovered until the Director declares the tournament officially over or all awards have been distributed.

So, if a group failed to call the stance violation because they didn't know the rule (say the player clearly had one foot out of bounds), and asked the TD about it when they were handing in their scorecard, they could call the stance violation at that point, and since the player did not make a re-throw, then yes, the 2-throw misplay penalty could be called later.

I think.

 

[_MTL_]

I've assessed two throw misplay penalties on someone for failing to rethrow after a properly called foot fault.

 

[JoakimBL]

That's a call the player can make after a properly made throw. A practice throw is called when a throw was not properly executed. Are you going to argue that a player is getting some benefit by tacking 1 throw on their score while still at the same lie?

If the player is not getting a benefit, he isn't going to call it now, is he? That is a stupid argument to make.
If a stance violation (that may or may not have occurred) is not called, it's a valid throw. If you want to rethrow it, you have to do so using optional rethrow, as your lie is now where the disc landed.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the player is not getting a benefit, he isn't going to call it now, is he? That is a stupid argument to make.
If a stance violation (that may or may not have occurred) is not called, it's a valid throw. If you want to rethrow it, you have to do so using optional rethrow, as your lie is now where the disc landed.

It's partly about honor in a self officiated game since you can't call a warning on yourself under current rules.

 

[_MTL_]

Chuck, I give you a hard time on this and Facebook.

And it's things like this as to why. Sometimes, it's me just giving you a hard time or just to stir up a good debate.

But This is absurd. Absolutely ridiculous. Worst of all is I believe people will see that this is your opinion and do it an event.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Chuck, I give you a hard time on this and Facebook.

And it's things like this as to why. Sometimes, it's me just giving you a hard time or just to stir up a good debate.

But This is absurd. Absolutely ridiculous. Worst of all is I believe people will see that this is your opinion and do it an event.

I hope they do it and why not? It's already being discussed as a TD option to allow players to Throw Again anytime as long as they choose to do it right away before advancing. It's no mulligan, the bad throw counts. It's a way players can potentially limit compound penalties when the TD/designer has poorly designed penalty elements. Of course, there's the risk the player could throw into a penalty situation on their re-throw so it's not without additional risk.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Sorry to interrupt with ignorance, but for some clarity so I can follow along since I am not rules aware enough to add in to the conversation...

What is the difference between a "practice throw" and "optional Re-throw"?

 

[JC17393]

Sorry to interrupt with ignorance, but for some clarity so I can follow along since I am not rules aware enough to add in to the conversation...

What is the difference between a "practice throw" and "optional Re-throw"?

In terms of this discussion, the difference is one penalty throw. A "practice throw" is a throw that does not count for advancing one's lie, but is penalized with a one-throw penalty. "Optional re-throw" involves throwing a shot that does count then discarding the resulting position in order to re-throw from the same lie with a one-throw penalty.

So for the hypothetical being discussed, if one were to throw a tee shot and be unhappy with it (or as Chuck is arguing, commit a foot fault of some kind that isn't called by the group), you have the option to re-throw. By Chuck's argument, you can call the first a practice throw and throw another tee shot that is effectively your second throw of the hole (penalty + the new throw). By optional re-throw, you discard the first throw and throw again effectively throwing your third throw of the hole (original throw + penalty + new throw).

Based on the current rules, I'd say that optional re-throw is the only one that is supported and that to declare an otherwise valid throw as a "practice throw" is misapplying and bending the rules for an advantage.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Based on the current rules, I'd say that optional re-throw is the only one that is supported and that to declare an otherwise valid throw as a "practice throw" is misapplying and bending the rules for an advantage.

Ok, this was about what I was assuming. What would be then an acceptable "practice" throw?

My first tournament I had a lie on a pretty steep sideways slope. During the throw I slipped on the slope yanked the disc OB into a heavily wooded creek. Took a provisional, never did find the OB disc. Scored a 7 on a long par 4 hole. Could that have been a practice throw? If so with the -1 penalty I could have possibly saved par.

I know out of my hand quite often I threw poorly. Early release, nose up. Some of these holes I'm looking at a +1 or +2 on a hole I should be able to Birdie. I wouldn't even have to wait till the disc got 1/2 way into its flight let alone land to be able to say "practice throw" and re-tee. Second chance drive my likelyhood of a birdie goes way up so that -1 would still give me a Par when, as I said a bad enough shank i'm pretty sure a Bogey or even double is coming my way.
Seems a very gray area that yeah, ripe for abuse.

 

[JC17393]

A practice throw is defined in the rules thusly: "A throw of more than two meters during a competitive round that does not change the lie. Provisional throws, misplayed throws, and stance violations are not practice throws."

So, by definition, a throw made from one's lie that is intended to progress the player down the fairway can't be a practice throw. It isn't when it's thrown and it certainly can't be declared one retroactively.

Tough to say what is an "acceptable" practice throw since, by rule, it's never actually acceptable (thus the penalty). An example of what is a practice throw would be if one were to miss a putt and then pick up another disc and throw the putt again. The second throw would be considered a practice throw, it wouldn't count as a legal throw (so it couldn't be used to determine the next lie), and a penalty would be added to the player's score. Another example would be in the event of a back-up at a tee, you're not allowed to go back to the previous basket and putt, or play catch, or toss discs in a nearby field to "stay loose" during the wait. Those would all be considered practice throws.

 

[rhatton1]

No problem as long as you make the call while on your lie right after your mis-throw. If you advance forward to look at where your shot landed, it's too late to call the practice throw just like it would be too late for another player to call a stance violation or practice throw. At that point, you must take the Optional Re-throw with penalty.

From a practical standpoint, why shouldn't a player be allowed to call an immediate 1-throw penalty on their score and throw again from the same lie right away? We're sitting here discussing warnings and who should be able to call them or if they should be allowed. It should be a no-brainer for a player to throw again right away from the same lie counting the previous throw on their score.

Surely this is a problem? I've never heard any such interpretation of the rules. It would have suited me this weekend just gone. 200 meter downhill par 3, I throw and get it horribly wrong, nose up and stalled with a right to left wind, it's clearly going up over the line of trees to the left. For some reason I think there is an OB road behind/under the thick trees/bushes which if I have to play from I will have little to no chance of getting back to the fairway any better than If I reteed for three. I immediately called an optional rethrow way before the disc had landed.

Turns out I was wrong there was no OB, I designed the course, it had been a long weekend and by my 30th hole of the day my brain was mush

Are you saying I could have called it a "practice throw" and taken my effectively second shot instead? That is so far out of the realms of fairplay? I might have picked up the 4 then possibly even the 3 rather than the six i ended up with (my retee did exactly the same thing it was ugly, I was very tired and annoyed with myself!! )

It's a very strange interpretation of what a practice throw is, if someone tried to claim that as a TD I wouldn't allow it and can't find enough in the rule book to allow it? It is about at the farthest end of bending the rules possible without crossing full blown into cheating, I can't believe anyone from the RC was thinking of a practice throw as being something a player could call on themselves?

 

[rhatton1]

I know out of my hand quite often I threw poorly. Early release, nose up. Some of these holes I'm looking at a +1 or +2 on a hole I should be able to Birdie. I wouldn't even have to wait till the disc got 1/2 way into its flight let alone land to be able to say "practice throw" and re-tee. Second chance drive my likelyhood of a birdie goes way up so that -1 would still give me a Par when, as I said a bad enough shank i'm pretty sure a Bogey or even double is coming my way.
Seems a very gray area that yeah, ripe for abuse.

This^ I can think of so many holes where I immediately know the disc is going OB in a bad place and that 2 from the tee will be an advantage. Three off the tee with an optional rethrow probably won;t be.

seems a strange idea all round

My classic for this would be hole 13 at Quarry Park, OB left with a clump of bushes half way down the fairway, If I am OB close to or at those bushes I am almost certainly getting a five on a hole I can sometimes 2 and mostly three. Most of the time I know as soon as the disc has left my hand that it will be going OB, it will be a nose up early release. This is an error I make about on e in every 10 shots on the hole so would back myself to comfortably rethrow and pick up a 3 or 4.

 

[_MTL_]

I've emailed Conrad Damon, chair of the PDGA rules committee. I am interested to hear his opinion.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Under current rules, players cannot call a foot fault warning on themselves. There was a concern that some players faked a foot fault to get the equivalent of a mulligan (free re-throw) and just get a warning under the previous rules. Regardless, most players feel a player should be penalized for foot faults in some way - some thinking a warning is appropriate, others familiar with golf rules think it should immediately count as 1 shot such as moving a ball while setting up to swing or a whiff swing in BG. (These are similar to a foot fault in DG.) Players who believe they should be allowed to call their foot fault in a self-officiated sport and get a penalty currently can't do it directly but would seem to be able to do the equivalent by calling a 'practice throw' whether the RC planned it that way or not.

The funny thing here is some players who believed a player should not have gotten the free mulligan under the old rules seem to feel a player deliberately tacking a more severe 1-throw penalty on their score when the player feels they foot faulted or for any other reason is somehow unfair. Should it ever be seen as unfair for players to penalize themselves 1 throw and not advance as long as they prepare to throw again right after the poor throw?

This also gets at the root of a creeping problem in disc golf which is TDs and designers getting punishment crazy, "desperate" to add challenges on more open holes. However, many times they are adding inappropriate or sneaky punitive penalty elements to their designs even in the woods that can penalize a player more than 1-throw such as mandos with a re-throw drop zone or islands where the drop zone is far enough from the pin that going OB is essentially a 2-throw penalty.

Giving players the option to throw again from the same lie, still counting the previous throw, can give the player a slightly less punitive way to work around these sometimes dubious hazards although they still run the risk of landing in the hazard again on the re-throw. The point is, there's no free lunch taking this re-throw. The player already has a 1-throw higher score while still on their lie facing the same challenge they just failed.