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[dorseymatt]

Not knowing how experienced any given camera person is, I have no idea how to determine whether experience makes a difference in avoiding getting hit. Maybe experience enables camera people to set up in less risky spots, but I really don't think experience will make them more nimble or faster on the draw to escape an incoming disc.

This guy that Weese hit was standing in the OB area, so it's not like he was in the middle of the fairway. He was probably where he was instructed to be on that hole. And as has been pointed out, perspective when looking through the viewfinder can be disorienting when it comes to things moving toward you.

I think the biggest thing about the incident that leads me to not blame the camera person regardless of any experience factor is that the disc skipped. It's one thing to see the disc coming and be able to move out of its way when it is on a clear and predictable trajectory. A skipping disc is different. It could skip high, it could skip low, it could skip straight, it could go left or right at a variety of different angles. He could have attempted to move and wound up moving right into the path of the disc when standing still would have meant it missed him. He has no way of knowing that in the moment.

That's all very fair. To be honest, if this happens to a CCDG or Jomez camera operator, I think almost nothing of it, other than it's really unfortunate for the player (sometimes traveling out of bounds to land in bounds is the intended line. Which i know you know, but I'm saying it for what it's worth). That's because of those crews' history and credibility. The incident I'm referring to happened in a particular context, and it makes it ripe for criticism. It's another thing that points to the crew's inexperience and, in general, the idea that they may not have been ready for this. Maybe I'm wrong, and that guy was extremely experienced, and there was simply nothing he could do. That's possible. I watched it twice, and that's how how it looked to me, but I wasn't there, in his shoes.

 

[gammaxgoblin]

This guy that Weese hit was standing in the OB area, so it's not like he was in the middle of the fairway. He was probably where he was instructed to be on that hole. And as has been pointed out, perspective when looking through the viewfinder can be disorienting when it comes to things moving toward you.

I think this says it all. If the guy was in OB, then he is under no obligation and need not have any awareness of moving his position. Just because he is a person with awareness of the situation does not mean he should take any action. Just like a golf cart being parked OB, or a car...it is unfortunate but its called OB for a reason. People IB do need to not get hit.

Think about cameras in foul territory at a baseball game. Sometimes players could catch a foul ball just out of play except for the camera being there.

 

[dorseymatt]

I think this says it all. If the guy was in OB, then he is under no obligation and need not have any awareness of moving his position. Just because he is a person with awareness of the situation does not mean he should take any action. .

I think this is an odd take. Do you really believe this?

 

[Royalhghnss]

Are there examples of it occurring with the experienced crews? honest question, not trying to pick at the camera guy.

In 8+ years of filming a CCDG crew has been hit exactly once, and it was that guys first time filming dg. Jomez has never been hit to my knowledge.

It is my literal worst nightmare to be hit, and even worse keep a disc OB. This absolutely should not happen. Especially on a wide open hole where you can see the disc coming the whole way. It's not hard to not get hit. Pay attention, know how a disc flies, and MOVE if you need to. They missed lots of b cam shots, one more miss is not even close to equivalent to getting hit. Getting hit >>>>> missing a B cam shot.

From looking at the names in the credits, I think some of these guys were Phoenix area freelance videographers that were hired for just the Memorial. If that's the case, we will see a new set of camera men for Waco.

This is correct.

 

[dorseymatt]

In 8+ years of filming a CCDG crew has been hit exactly once, and it was that guys first time filming dg. Jomez has never been hit to my knowledge.

It is my literal worst nightmare to be hit, and even worse keep a disc OB. This absolutely should not happen. Especially on a wide open hole where you can see the disc coming the whole way. It's not hard to not get hit. Pay attention, know how a disc flies, and MOVE if you need to. They missed lots of b cam shots, one more miss is not even close to equivalent to getting hit. Getting hit >>>>> missing a B cam shot.



This is correct.

Thank you!

BTW, I am still so psyched about Paige's "Let's watch some disc golf."

 

[JC17393]

I think this says it all. If the guy was in OB, then he is under no obligation and need not have any awareness of moving his position. Just because he is a person with awareness of the situation does not mean he should take any action. Just like a golf cart being parked OB, or a car...it is unfortunate but its called OB for a reason. People IB do need to not get hit.

Think about cameras in foul territory at a baseball game. Sometimes players could catch a foul ball just out of play except for the camera being there.

I don't agree that simply being in an OB area absolves anyone from even attempting to avoid interfering with a disc. I only pointed out that he was standing OB to demonstrate that he wasn't in a position where he was clearly going to be in the way.

Sure, players can strategically throw over/through an OB area like that, but in such a case (as with any throw, really) it is incumbent on the player to ensure that the path is clear. Or at least to offer a warning to those that might be in the path before they throw there, particularly if it's not the expected route.

I fully believe this cameraman didn't want to be hit and would have tried to get out of the way if it was possible. But that he didn't isn't something he should be criticized for either.

 

[JC17393]

In 8+ years of filming a CCDG crew has been hit exactly once, and it was that guys first time filming dg. Jomez has never been hit to my knowledge.

It is my literal worst nightmare to be hit, and even worse keep a disc OB. This absolutely should not happen. Especially on a wide open hole where you can see the disc coming the whole way. It's not hard to not get hit. Pay attention, know how a disc flies, and MOVE if you need to. They missed lots of b cam shots, one more miss is not even close to equivalent to getting hit. Getting hit >>>>> missing a B cam shot.

I'll respectfully disagree and point out that shooting for post-produced is a different animal that shooting for live. Sure, a B cam shot can be skipped if the operator abandoned the shot for safety. But this was a live broadcast, not a B cam. His camera was the live one on the feed when he got hit. I can only imagine the feedback from viewers if, instead of holding the shot and getting hit, he jumped out of the way and dropped the camera so that everyone watching got treated to a wild picture of the sky or the ground or who knows what. I'm not going to fault him for holding the shot rather than dumping the camera to jump out of the way.

 

[lyleoross]

If no one watched the thread comments on YouTub, there was a lot of harshing, and not harshing, of Nate for calling mistakes, mistakes.

I'm pretty sure the basis of this is that CCDG and BigNate tend to be absolutely sympathetic when something goes wrong, whereas Nate Doss simply said, "boy that was a mistake."

I found Nate D's take to be rather refreshing. If a player has something go wrong that was out of their control, dog runs onto fairway and catches disc, they have my sympathy. If a player throws OB is a pronounced shank, well yeah, they blew it.

 

[cheesethin]

I think this says it all. If the guy was in OB, then he is under no obligation and need not have any awareness of moving his position. Just because he is a person with awareness of the situation does not mean he should take any action. Just like a golf cart being parked OB, or a car...it is unfortunate but its called OB for a reason. People IB do need to not get hit.

Think about cameras in foul territory at a baseball game. Sometimes players could catch a foul ball just out of play except for the camera being there.

Just because an area is OB does not mean it is necessarily not part of the 'playing area'. Some OB is for sure, eg anything outside of the property boundaries. But lots of OB is internal to the course and can be designed to be thrown over, often as a risk/reward proposition. How many island holes are there where players deliberately skip of the OB road/ball golf green/cart path and back in bounds? OB does not always mean 'not part of the course'.

 

[biscoe]

From looking at the names in the credits, I think some of these guys were Phoenix area freelance videographers that were hired for just the Memorial. If that's the case, we will see a new set of camera men for Waco.

hopefully they aren't going to be "starting over" with a new crew at each event... that would not bode well.

 

[Flick Maniac]

I'll respectfully disagree and point out that shooting for post-produced is a different animal that shooting for live. Sure, a B cam shot can be skipped if the operator abandoned the shot for safety. But this was a live broadcast, not a B cam. His camera was the live one on the feed when he got hit. I can only imagine the feedback from viewers if, instead of holding the shot and getting hit, he jumped out of the way and dropped the camera so that everyone watching got treated to a wild picture of the sky or the ground or who knows what. I'm not going to fault him for holding the shot rather than dumping the camera to jump out of the way.

I think there were enough shaky shots of the sky that one more would not have caused such a brewhaha that getting hit instead did.

See a disc coming straight at you? Abandon the camera and get the hell out of Dodge. (pun intended)

 

[biscoe]

I'll respectfully disagree and point out that shooting for post-produced is a different animal that shooting for live. Sure, a B cam shot can be skipped if the operator abandoned the shot for safety. But this was a live broadcast, not a B cam. His camera was the live one on the feed when he got hit. I can only imagine the feedback from viewers if, instead of holding the shot and getting hit, he jumped out of the way and dropped the camera so that everyone watching got treated to a wild picture of the sky or the ground or who knows what. I'm not going to fault him for holding the shot rather than dumping the camera to jump out of the way.

what's one more shot of the sky where you can't see a thing amount to? not like it would have been the only one...

 

[_MTL_]

I just watched the post - production.

Multiple times where you could not hear commentary over crowd / external noise. That's just very bad editing.

Hopefully things will improve, but there's no way this was at the CCDG / Jomez / Marty McGee / etc level.

 

[Royalhghnss]

I'll respectfully disagree and point out that shooting for post-produced is a different animal that shooting for live. Sure, a B cam shot can be skipped if the operator abandoned the shot for safety. But this was a live broadcast, not a B cam. His camera was the live one on the feed when he got hit. I can only imagine the feedback from viewers if, instead of holding the shot and getting hit, he jumped out of the way and dropped the camera so that everyone watching got treated to a wild picture of the sky or the ground or who knows what. I'm not going to fault him for holding the shot rather than dumping the camera to jump out of the way.

Here's the feedback:

WOW good thing he moved so he didn't get hit and cost Jessica two strokes!

And guess what? HE DID MISS THE SHOT lol. What are we focusing on? That should tell you what people care about. Hint it's not the shot being missed.

I for the life of me can't understand this take. We are there to capture the action, not affect it. He was also in just a plain bad spot. You want to be beyond the basket to avoid 90-180 degree pan.

Inexperienced (when it comes to dg) camera dudes (that don't play disc golf), and this is what happens.

Wanna hear another story?

Cat is lining up a putt, and the camera guy is right in her view, moving around. She asks him to move, he won't. Paige sees this and goes over to talk to him, telling him to move. Explaining that we give preference to the people playing on higher number holes. He asks Paige if he's OB for the hole Cat is on. She tells him his is, but that it's not the point. He refuses to move, Paige gives up.

 

[dorseymatt]

Here's the feedback:

WOW good thing he moved so he didn't get hit and cost Jessica two strokes!

And guess what? HE DID MISS THE SHOT lol. What are we focusing on? That should tell you what people care about. Hint it's not the shot being missed.

I for the life of me can't understand this take. We are there to capture the action, not affect it. He was also in just a plain bad spot. You want to be beyond the basket to avoid 90-180 degree pan.

Inexperienced (when it comes to dg) camera dudes (that don't play disc golf), and this is what happens.

Wanna hear another story?

Cat is lining up a putt, and the camera guy is right in her view, moving around. She asks him to move, he won't. Paige sees this and goes over to talk to him, telling him to move. Explaining that we give preference to the people playing on higher number holes. He asks Paige if he's OB for the hole Cat is on. She tells him his is, but that it's not the point. He refuses to move, Paige gives up.

Wow. This is pretty egregious.

 

[Timthenchant3r]

Here's the feedback:

WOW good thing he moved so he didn't get hit and cost Jessica two strokes!

And guess what? HE DID MISS THE SHOT lol. What are we focusing on? That should tell you what people care about. Hint it's not the shot being missed.

I for the life of me can't understand this take. We are there to capture the action, not affect it. He was also in just a plain bad spot. You want to be beyond the basket to avoid 90-180 degree pan.

Inexperienced (when it comes to dg) camera dudes (that don't play disc golf), and this is what happens.

Wanna hear another story?

Cat is lining up a putt, and the camera guy is right in her view, moving around. She asks him to move, he won't. Paige sees this and goes over to talk to him, telling him to move. Explaining that we give preference to the people playing on higher number holes. He asks Paige if he's OB for the hole Cat is on. She tells him his is, but that it's not the point. He refuses to move, Paige gives up.

If only these outcomes were at all predictable! Who could have known these things were going to happen??? /s

 

[_MTL_]

Inexperienced (when it comes to dg) camera dudes (that don't play disc golf), and this is what happens.

This.

Imagine explaining to someone how to film a thumber, or a roller or a S curve when they have no knowledge of how a disc flies.

I imagine the conversation doing...

Producer: "So the thumber will turn left and then quickly right."
Camera guy: "easy. When does it turn right?"
Producer: "when it it pans"
Camera "pans? what does that mean?"
Producer: "When the bottom is facing the sky. Of course, if you release it more sideways, it starts the pan way quicker."

 

[Timthenchant3r]

This.

Imagine explaining to someone how to film a thumber, or a roller or a S curve when they have no knowledge of how a disc flies.

I imagine the conversation doing...

Producer: "So the thumber will turn left and then quickly right."
Camera guy: "easy. When does it turn right?"
Producer: "when it it pans"
Camera "pans? what does that mean?"
Producer: "When the bottom is facing the sky. Of course, if you release it more sideways, it starts the pan way quicker."

Not only explaining what it is, but being able to anticipate when a particular player might throw one.

 

[davetherocketguy]

In 8+ years of filming a CCDG crew has been hit exactly once, and it was that guys first time filming dg. Jomez has never been hit to my knowledge.

It is my literal worst nightmare to be hit, and even worse keep a disc OB. This absolutely should not happen. Especially on a wide open hole where you can see the disc coming the whole way. It's not hard to not get hit. Pay attention, know how a disc flies, and MOVE if you need to. They missed lots of b cam shots, one more miss is not even close to equivalent to getting hit. Getting hit >>>>> missing a B cam shot.



This is correct.

Huh. Maybe it's not as hard as I originally thought. Of course, I've never filmed anything remotely like DG so take what I say with a giant grain of salt. My experience is really limited...just thought it woud be more impossible than that. If there's only been one hit between Jomez and CCDG that is saying a lot to their expertise.

Makes me want to pickup a camera and try filming a DG tourney. Sounds like it could be fun.

 

[lyleoross]

Just because an area is OB does not mean it is necessarily not part of the 'playing area'. Some OB is for sure, eg anything outside of the property boundaries. But lots of OB is internal to the course and can be designed to be thrown over, often as a risk/reward proposition. How many island holes are there where players deliberately skip of the OB road/ball golf green/cart path and back in bounds? OB does not always mean 'not part of the course'.

Yes, but that isn't the same as throwing accidentally OB. In case one, you've gone over an OB area to get to an IB area and some dork walked into your flight path. Bad on dork. In case two, you overthrew your disc into the spectator area, or camera area, shame on you.

If that spectator area, or filming area, is "part of the course" then the TD needs to mark it as such. If it is an area that is not recognized as a normal flight path (please see about 50% of Simon's throws) then it is on the player to make sure that flight area is cleared, IMO.

If I'm skipping my disc OB in hopes of getting it back IB, it's on me to make sure that area is clear.

Simply put, the area Madison threw into was no such area, IIRC. She overheated a throw and it went left and long. I'd have to go look to make sure, but I know I won't have to, someone with more brain cells than I have will correct me.

It is singularly unfair to credit a spectator with an error when a player "unintentionally" throws OB. Credit fate if you don't want to credit the player for making a mistake, but don't blame the person standing in the OB area.