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Putting Help

yeah Nate has a different putt, but yet again it is all the same in the release, and that is what i was trying to say.

but i tried to not sound like an ass or anything just trying to give out information.
 
And doing what comes naturally to you and practicing will help you learn what those weaknesses are and how to adapt to them and defeat them, changing style to an unnatural motion won't help you at all, only set you back. And as you stated above every putting style has it's weaknesses. You'll get good at anything if you do it again and again. I've seen very successful putters use many different styles (anhyzer, hyzer, line drive etc..). What I wrote above was advise from the best putter I know. Practice Practice Practice. Try to tell Nate Doss not to putt with an anhyzer. He's probably practiced that a billiion times and knows what the risks are and how to minimize them, with practice anyone can do this.

85-90% of players i come across have a weak putting stroke. tons of variability in their launch point, their misses are left/right as frequently as they are high/low.

you get better at things by doing them again and again, but people's definition of "good" varies greatly. i would never be content with a putting stroke that peaked at 70% make from 30', especially if all of my misses were in the same way.

making any changes requires time for adjustment, acclimation, and mastery. honestly, most disc golfers aren't willing to sink in the reps and focused practice that is required of this, so it's much easier to default to just sticking with the same form hoping it will all of a sudden be golden. the summer my putting really came around i threw at least 70,000 putts (possibly closer to 80,000-90,000). i constantly made changes all summer until my %'s peaked at a level i was okay with. my %'s didn't start getting where i wanted them to until my consistency with finger spring and palm push were nearly maxed out.

people who are asking a question like the one posed here, likely haven't mastered the release yet. once the release is mastered, make %'s will be high, and it's more a matter of learning how to aim, read wind, and gauge putter's drop rates. there's only 2 components that matter for consistency in putting: release timing/orientation and non-linear vectors. there are styles that remove non-linear vectors, so putting becomes a matter of release in those cases.

Nate Doss has a much more extensive dg background and is much more skilled than 99.9% of people. when you are a multi-time world champ, under 30 and have been playing seriously for 20+ years, you likely have thrown TONS UPON TONS of putts and have found mastery of all the necessary components. remember this: Nate Doss's success with anhyzer putting, Barry Schultz's success with nose down putting, etc. are heavily based upon the fact that they are good enough with their drives/approaches to leave themselves with favorable winds for their putting style.

a nose down putt doesn't work into a headwind, but Barry is good enough to leave himself a tail or crosswind putt for like 98% of his putts. Joe Amateur has probably never even considered that reading the wind at the green is equally important to reading the wind the tee (or his lie) and probably will not have great success with this style unless he becomes a money driver.

why does Tiger Woods' caddie hand him a 3-iron when he's 230 yards away? because Tiger can hit a 3-iron 230 yards. why doesn't $10 caddie at the local town course hand a 3-iron to Joe Golfer when he's 230 yards away? because Joe Golfer can't hit a 3-iron 230 yards. Joe Golfer can go hit 5,000 driving range balls with his 3-iron and he may/may not ever reach that length, let alone do it consistently and accurately.

i don't want to come off as hostile with this, i just see special case pro forms being taken so out of context that it doesn't show the whole picture.

i can go out and mimic like 20+ pros putting forms and do quite well with each form. doing that is how i learned that the release is the magic of the putt. pretty much all great putters have the same basic release/stroke whether it's Nate Doss's anhyzer putt, Ron Russell's wrap around putt, Barry Schultz's nose down straddle pitch, Cam Todd's hyzer putt, Climo's shovel loft, etc.

you can get "good" with any one of those styles. however, if you are building from the ground up, why not choose one that is easier to learn/master than the others and is affected by fewer external factors?

there is a huge mechanical difference between the stroke of most players you see out there putting, and the best putters in the world putting. there is a reason why they are the best in the world, it is not only from practice, repetition and mind, it is mechanical that sets it. doing it from what works for you is how you stance yourself, or for what style you choose to use. style has nothing to do with the actual stroke itself.

this is pretty much exactly how i feel about it (and have told to masterbeato tons of times)

I think you just said it in a way that is easier to understand. My initial point was very general. After you have a basic solid stroke do what works best for you and keep practicing it.

i partially agree. most people have a godawful stroke, so a solid stroke is what to aspire for. at the same time, once you have a solid stroke you realize just how unimportant the rest of the putting form is. certain motions/styles add in one area but detract from another. e.g. having elbow extension in your putt adds power, but also requires greater precision in your timing to avoid missing left/right. having a hyzer or anhyzer putt increases putter carry by a wide margin (vs. a flat putt) but at the same time introduces a much smaller window of precision for ranging the putt.
 
yeah unfortunately, i have not yet mastered much of anything in DG accept for distance and range control. i am working on the essentials of what i need to be a 1030+ rated player here in the next 10 years. my goal is actually to be 1000 rated by the end of 2011. i think that is a rather realistic goal for me.

putting i have definitely not mastered yet, i know what to do because i now know what makes a great putter, i just have to be one of those myself hehe.
 
putting is easy. people make it hard.

I love this!

I tell people I play with the same thing.

Throw it at the basket.

I am not a good disc golf player by any rate, but I can play and compete with players much better than I am because I putt well. It really seems like the easiest way to score better.
 
Yep. Everyone can throw a disc 50'.

For me, I've been in a horrible putting slump over the past 2 months or so. Ironically, I'm snapping the disc better than I ever have, meaning I have more opportunities to score, but can't convert. In fact, I'm actually putting up worse scores than when I was driving worse but putting better. Just goes to show you how important putting is.
 
I would like to bump this thread and talk about putting more often...I've been having a big putting slump lately after attempting to learn the Feldberg style putt for the past 2 months. It is so hard to not go back to my spin hyzer putt, which is where my confidence lies. I like the hyzer spin putt (about a 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock wrist snap), because I'm used to it, it is an aggressive putt that is fairly wind resistant, usually if I miss it will only go 15' or so away unless I get a bad roll, if it hits the right side chains it is in, and with the hyzer, it reduces the amount of spin outs when hitting the left side chains because it spins in a downward left direction, instead of directly left.

But of course, I have to be on for it to work, because there is more error for left/right misses and long comeback putts. But I can't find another style that I am comfortable with. I think this falls into the doing what I'm used to, and I just don't know any better.

Blake talks about how all the pros have the same release in common among all of their styles. After watching a few videos it looks like releasing around the stomach and then continuing the follow-thru upwards is a common motion. Others?
 
Blake talks about how all the pros have the same release in common among all of their styles. After watching a few videos it looks like releasing around the stomach and then continuing the follow-thru upwards is a common motion. Others?

isolate the mechanics of the release and you will have found your commonality. separate the release from the method of powering the putt and the follow through.

the way to really see this is to get quite good at like 5 different styles (e.g. copy the motions of 5 different pros and get good at this style).
 
I throw Laser Beams.(soft magnets)
The spin is what keeps it straight.I focus on hitting the chains right before it fades.
It looks like I am going hard at it but really it is about range control.When I miss they just sit down with in 15'.
You will go way past the basket when trying to learn laser beams.I have been using this style for 15 years.Not the recommended style but it will amaze your friends!
 
Timko said:
Yep. Everyone can throw a disc 50'.

For me, I've been in a horrible putting slump over the past 2 months or so. Ironically, I'm snapping the disc better than I ever have, meaning I have more opportunities to score, but can't convert. In fact, I'm actually putting up worse scores than when I was driving worse but putting better. Just goes to show you how important putting is.


Oh man, this is me. Right now. 100% exact on. I hope its the cold weather and lack of playing and practice
 
Claytoon said:
I would like to bump this thread and talk about putting more often...I've been having a big putting slump lately after attempting to learn the Feldberg style putt for the past 2 months. It is so hard to not go back to my spin hyzer putt, which is where my confidence lies. I like the hyzer spin putt (about a 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock wrist snap), because I'm used to it, it is an aggressive putt that is fairly wind resistant, usually if I miss it will only go 15' or so away unless I get a bad roll, if it hits the right side chains it is in, and with the hyzer, it reduces the amount of spin outs when hitting the left side chains because it spins in a downward left direction, instead of directly left.

But of course, I have to be on for it to work, because there is more error for left/right misses and long comeback putts. But I can't find another style that I am comfortable with. I think this falls into the doing what I'm used to, and I just don't know any better.

Blake talks about how all the pros have the same release in common among all of their styles. After watching a few videos it looks like releasing around the stomach and then continuing the follow-thru upwards is a common motion. Others?

same here, check out my response in the feldberg video thread... it really screwed me up. i couldn't take it anymore and went back to my regular style and now the world is good.
 
I think I've got a good feel for the release.

Basically, you slowly accelerate into the hit to get the disc moving in the right direction.

Then you prime your fingers like you're about to throw a paper airplane, but you don't push them out (you don't even have time to do this).

Then you do your quick late acceleration like Dave does when he's showing you how he reaches the basket easily.

This will help you pop it out with wrist extension, due to the palm nudge (you'll feel it, and it will go straight). If you primed your fingers right, you will also get finger spring out of this.

This seems to be working really well for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, those in the know.
 
dstain19 said:
I watch the pros throw lasers for putts that just go straight until they hit the chains. I have found I have the most success when I put a little anhyser on a stable putter and aim for the center of the basket with some loft on it. Is this something I should change now even if it hurts my putting game in the short term? Is there a good video to watch that will help my ability to throw it harder and straighter?

There are a bunch of folks on this forum who break down the technical (and minute) aspects of shots in ways I have never even thought of. Many of the descriptions don't even make sense to me. I would love to head to a practice basket/field and have them show me what they are talking about. My friend Mike Raley (a skilled and very smart golfer) is the same way. We were talking about putting and he asked me if upon release whether my weight was behind my knee, over my knee or in front of my knee. I had no idea. I still have no idea. I'm just trying to smack the metal thing with the plastic thing. The last thing I want to worry about is where my weight shift is relative to my knee.

I have always been a simple (simple minded?) and practical guy when it comes to throwing form and technique so I will respond to dstain19's query from that standpoint.

From what I have seen the best putters have better skill (some combination of innate talent and developed ability) and better confidence than the rest of us, not necessarily better form or better technique. Heck, I have seen all manner of putting styles which worked. Putts are short shots. They don't require special form. Not being a great putter (and formerly one the most God-awful putters to be found) I am happy to be shown to be wrong about this.

If form and technique could make a good putter then form and technique could also make someone good at shooting free throws in basketball (a pretty much equivalent skill). But some well known and otherwise great basketball players, with the best coaches, huge financial motivation and a ton of practice remained poor foul shooters. It ain't form and technique, its skill. Practice and the confidence that comes with practice are the best remedies I know of. But unfortunately great putters are born, good putters are made.

Players with strong backhand wrist snap can putt lasers but GOOD players with strong backhand snap can control the speed of their putt at will: that elusive combination of power and touch.

I don't think there is anything wrong with an anhyzer release angle on putts or drives or upshots, just the opposite. Most of us are hyzer dominant. A select and fortunate few are anhyzer dominant. A disproportionate percent of the best players are anhyzer dominant. Since annys are the most difficult shots to learn and to control if you happen to be blessed with that natural inclination, it is a powerful advantage (like being a left handed batter in baseball).

We need to learn to be proficient at every style of putting because there are times where we are only given one choice, one open line. Whatever you can't do will bite you in the butt.

I watched Ron Russell turn his back to the basket, set up in the blink of an eye and putt apparently without looking at the basket. How hard is that? I watched Barry Schultz (many years ago in the Brent Hambrick Open before it was called that, Columbus Open maybe?) making long putts in strong winds, using a straddle putt and a beat-up-to-heck beadless Aviar. How hard is that? I watched Johnny McCray throwing turbos over and around obstacles from way out. How hard is that?

I do know that if don't have a strong backhand wrist snap that push putting won't work. I spin putt because I have no choice. I will never putt lasers. About at the edge of the putting circle I turn sideways and throw it. If 15 years of relentless putting practice hasn't given me a strong wrist then the next 15 years probably won't either.

So dstain19, do what works for you. If you have a natural preference start there and put your time in there but also dabble with every conceivable line and shot.
 
Mark Ellis said:
dstain19 said:
I watch the pros throw lasers for putts that just go straight until they hit the chains. I have found I have the most success when I put a little anhyser on a stable putter and aim for the center of the basket with some loft on it. Is this something I should change now even if it hurts my putting game in the short term? Is there a good video to watch that will help my ability to throw it harder and straighter?

There are a bunch of folks on this forum who break down the technical (and minute) aspects of shots in ways I have never even thought of. Many of the descriptions don't even make sense to me. I would love to head to a practice basket/field and have them show me what they are talking about. My friend Mike Raley (a skilled and very smart golfer) is the same way. We were talking about putting and he asked me if upon release whether my weight was behind my knee, over my knee or in front of my knee. I had no idea. I still have no idea. I'm just trying to smack the metal thing with the plastic thing. The last thing I want to worry about is where my weight shift is relative to my knee.

your posts are much appreciated and will give us different aspects to what goes on by just pure feeling, general opinion, and knowledge of the game.

i see way too many players practice their putting the same way, same style. the problem is, is that if you do, obviously their will be lack of skill is other areas. practice hyzer putting and nothing else? straight, and anny putts are not going to be up to par. when highly skilled players brush up their game, they practice more with shots they are not as good at, not by what shots they are already good at.

mostly practice shots you are not good at (not to say that you should not practice what you are good at because the more you practice one thing and not the other regardless of how good you are at it, something will turn superior over that said shot and become rusty in the other), but if you have been playing for 25 years, you do not have to practice much if at all anymore since you have been playing long enough you will be good enough to basically throw near your peak level every time you pick up a disc and start throwing it.

the whole point is, when a situation arises to where you need to pull off either one of those said shots (which happens a lot more than you may think) you need to do it on your first try because that is where it counts. repetition, and i used to throw 1000 - 2000 putts a day for a year and a half throwing anny, straight, hyzer, stall dump, nose up, nose down, flat, different degrees of nose up or down, etc... that alone made me 97% from inside 33', on any lined putt (anny, straight, hyzer etc.). if i sucked at throwing anny and hyzer (straight with 2 degrees nose down staggered being my main putting style) that would probably be boosted down to around 85% - 90% regularly, because i can get myself stuck in the crap just like everybody else.
 
There are a bunch of folks on this forum who break down the technical (and minute) aspects of shots in ways I have never even thought of.

we're great at over-nerding things here. i blame my "i won't love you if you aren't good at baseball" upbringing for my tendency to mess with stuff until i understand exactly how things work.

i see way too many players practice their putting the same way, same style. the problem is, is that if you do, obviously their will be lack of skill is other areas. practice hyzer putting and nothing else? straight, and anny putts are not going to be up to par. when highly skilled players brush up their game, they practice more with shots they are not as good at, not by what shots they are already good at.

mostly practice shots you are not good at (not to say that you should not practice what you are good at because the more you practice one thing and not the other regardless of how good you are at it, something will turn superior over that said shot and become rusty in the other)

this is basically a conversation dan and i had at dinner a couple of weeks ago.

i still consider putting to be a trick shot. there's a magic release that can make putting extremely easy. all of the great putters i have seen have this release in common even though their stances and power motion are completely different.

one thing that is very misleading about a "laser beam" putt is that the great putters who putt with this line/trajectory generally have extreme range control. e.g. it might look like a laser beam from 40' but the actual power is dialed in so precisely that if they miss metal completely it still stops within 15' of the pin (and often sooner). this is a shot that requires snap but not a lot of launch velocity (even if it appears to have a lot of launch velocity), which is what is the magical touch factor in all of it.

i play a slight drop line not because i can't laser beam it but because i nerded out the numbers and found there's a significant increase in make-able surface area on the basket if the putter is dropping slightly on its approach. i adopted the apex method of aiming because there is a significantly increased level of precision at shorter distances and that method virtually shortens the putt by ~30-40%.

anhyzer and hyzer putts will carry farther than flat putts. anhyzer putts will carry farther than hyzer putts. in most cases attempting to "putt harder" beyond your comfort range will destroy the natural timing and release characteristics of your putt and switching to a jump putt or anhyzer/hyzer putt will allow you to gain additional carry without changing your putting stroke.

every motion and body position affects your putting stroke. the key thing to keep in mind here is that while many will yield good results, they all have their own unique miss problems (when technique execution fails). if you have the magic release these tendencies will become very apparent after a short period of time. the thing that happens is that many of the people who have come to find the magic release did so with a given motion/positions and tie that release to said motion/positions. granted, most of the time when people find the magic release they also reach an acceptable make % for themselves and that is fine.

This will help you pop it out with wrist extension, due to the palm nudge (you'll feel it, and it will go straight). If you primed your fingers right, you will also get finger spring out of this.

that sounds pretty close but if you are accelerating it, you should feel the disc's weight on your finger tips as the wrist starts to extend.
 
Mark Ellis said:
From what I have seen the best putters have better skill (some combination of innate talent and developed ability) and better confidence than the rest of us, not necessarily better form or better technique. Heck, I have seen all manner of putting styles which worked. Putts are short shots. They don't require special form. Not being a great putter (and formerly one the most God-awful putters to be found) I am happy to be shown to be wrong about this.
I wouldn't say it's wrong, but there is a different way to look at it.

A common misconception about the techniques that are commonly endorsed on here is that it's the only way to do it. It's easy to make the argument that because others have found success other ways that the stuff that's strongly suggested on here isn't valid and that "doing what works for you" is a better way. In reality, the techniques taught here are endorsed because they're the easiest ways for players to acheive their goals. It may seem silly to suggest really minor changes, but if those changes eliminate a variable you have you control every time you throw that's less you have to learn.
 
Parks said:
I think I've got a good feel for the release.

Basically, you slowly accelerate into the hit to get the disc moving in the right direction.

Then you prime your fingers like you're about to throw a paper airplane, but you don't push them out (you don't even have time to do this).

Then you do your quick late acceleration like Dave does when he's showing you how he reaches the basket easily.

This will help you pop it out with wrist extension, due to the palm nudge (you'll feel it, and it will go straight). If you primed your fingers right, you will also get finger spring out of this.

This seems to be working really well for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, those in the know.

when im successful with my putting, im feeling the same thing.
the only thing that confuses me is what do you mean by "prime your fingers"? I think i may just be refering it differently
 
One more thing. Im hoping someone can verify.

I know Blake preaches that the release is the most important part in any putt.
In the short - arm apex putt, i think I found the golden ticket.

Does palm nudge/release + stopping the acceleration at the exact same time = the trick to all this?
 
In the short - arm apex putt, i think I found the golden ticket.

Does palm nudge/release + stopping the acceleration at the exact same time = the trick to all this?

it's more of a flow than anything. it starts with the basic fundamentals of a true nose neutral putt (one that isn't nose up or nose down).

assuming you are starting with your grip between 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock...

your arm moves forward (your hand is slight in front of the disc at this point).
the arm stops moving forward.
the disc continues forward due to momentum/inertia which triggers the opening of the wrist.
the hand opens and the disc is ejected from the hand by the completion of the wrist opening (this is the palm nudge, at this point in time the hand is behind the disc, probably between 4 o'clock and 6 o'clock).

this is true for both short and long arm putts. it's not really something you can isolate into parts as it's more of a flow. the reason behind the short arm is that you have full control over the timing of when the wrist opens. if you reach full extension there is a greater tendency to have a mis-timed release that is either too early (not enough wrist extension) or too late (too much wrist extension). by stopping short with the arm motion it puts the timing variable more under your control (it's a conscious motion rather than an incidental motion) and yields a higher % of cleanly executed releases.

the foundations of this is very similar to snap with the major difference being a conscious opening of the hand rather than a rip from the hand.

to get back to the original question, it's not about doing it at the same time but feeling the process. stopping the acceleration -> wrist opens -> nudge with palm. it might seem like it happens at roughly the same time but in reality your hand must move from say, 2 o'clock to 4:30 before the nudge happens. this happens very quickly but nailing down a consistent release point on the disc is the key to repeating it over and over.
 
When you say your hand or grip is at 1 o'clock, what part of the hand do you mean?

For example, my index finger is at 1 or 2 o'clock and my lock fingers at closer to 3 or 4 o'clock.
 
When you say your hand or grip is at 1 o'clock, what part of the hand do you mean?

For example, my index finger is at 1 or 2 o'clock and my lock fingers at closer to 3 or 4 o'clock.

i could give an absolute answer but imo you are best off throwing a few dozen practice putts experimenting with multiple combinations and finding out exactly which ones work best for you.

being aware that there should be a change and that you should be somewhat behind the disc in order to nudge it forwards are the biggest things you should take from what i wrote there.
 
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