Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app! It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
I've always been curious to this -
Is engaging one's hips in a backhand actually an active movement, where you purposely "snap" the hips as you're starting to brace? Or is it rather really a by-product of proper weight transfer into a good brace itself? Or even alternatively, am I thinking too black and white?
I have a poor brace in general that I've been working on lately, and still notice whether I try to actively engage my hips or not, I'm still quite upper body dominant.
I've always been curious to this -
Is engaging one's hips in a backhand actually an active movement, where you purposely "snap" the hips as you're starting to brace? Or is it rather really a by-product of proper weight transfer into a good brace itself? Or even alternatively, am I thinking too black and white?
I have a poor brace in general that I've been working on lately, and still notice whether I try to actively engage my hips or not, I'm still quite upper body dominant.
Is engaging one's hips in a backhand actually an active movement, where you purposely "snap" the hips as you're starting to brace? Or is it rather really a by-product of proper weight transfer into a good brace itself? Or even alternatively, am I thinking too black and white?
I have a poor brace in general that I've been working on lately, and still notice whether I try to actively engage my hips or not, I'm still quite upper body dominant.
I don't like the "engage the hips" lingo because it decontextualizes them from the rest of the body and swing. People are also not very keen on what they mean mechanically when they say things like that. There are surprisingly many ways to get bad leg and hip action. Some of them are dangerous.
Thinking of "Snapping" the hips can lead people to weird jerking motions that don't leverage the ground and/or move weight correctly.
Learning how to move the legs and body with a focus on posture and weight transfer etc seems like the way to go. SW22's Figure 8 and standstill video is an excellent way to connect the dots & worth revisiting often while learning.
I don't actively think about engaging my hips. And the whole idea about having your hips 'fire' seems so bad. As long as you put your body in the right position, and shift your weight accordingly, your hips just move fluently with the rest of your body in the kinetic chain.
I don't actively think about engaging my hips. And the whole idea about having your hips 'fire' seems so bad. As long as you put your body in the right position, and shift your weight accordingly, your hips just move fluently with the rest of your body in the kinetic chain.
1) Would you say that the power of your shot roughly correlates with the speed at which your hips come through?
2) What do the hips (maybe specifically the hip sockets/the joints with the femurs) feel like during the plant and throw? Do they feel soft and loose, with the hips easily turning towards the plant leg, or do they feel strong and braced, with the angle between the hips and the front leg feeling a bit locked?
Also, question about the base of the kinetic chain: When the plant foot starts to spin, is that a sign that the body has finished using ground-reaction forces to add energy to the shot?
To elaborate on the source of my question:
I think that the spinning out of the front foot might be the single most vexing part of the throw for me. I feel like, if my weight is truly shifted completely to my front foot, the friction force under my front foot is great enough that I can't rotate through the shot without risking knee injury. In fact, if I'm "crushing the can" and my front foot is being driven into the ground with significantly more force than my weight due to the G-forces of bracing against my body's momentum, the sole of my front foot really feels glued to the ground and I don't feel like I can safely allow my hips/upper body to rotate through the shot.
If the power contribution of the front foot comes from a brief pump of your weight against it earlier in the throw, and you almost "bounce" weight off of the plant foot so that it's not so heavily weighted when it spins, then that would make sense to me, but I don't see any evidence of that in slomo videos of the pros, and I don't read anything to that effect on these forums.
I think "yes." But don't try to "jerk" or "snap" the hips open. It should come up the chain from ground forces & you will open faster when you have better posture & balance and the leg mechanics are sound and faster.
2) What do the hips (maybe specifically the hip sockets/the joints with the femurs) feel like during the plant and throw? Do they feel soft and loose, with the hips easily turning towards the plant leg, or do they feel strong and braced, with the angle between the hips and the front leg feeling a bit locked?
Interesting Q. I'd say that as I learn, the drills might emphasize "firmer" mechanics. But the better my swing gets, it feels both (1) more clearly leveraged at all stages with fewer power "leaks" yet is still (2) increasingly fluid, easy, quicker, and lower effort. So you're loose and athletic, but you have more leverage from the ground up. You don't want to feel like your hips are jamming/stiff - they should swivel like the ball and socket joint that they are. But you need to be in good posture, maintain balance, and find the best positions that keep leverage moving up the chain with no breaks in transferring force.
I've been working hard on my plant leg mechanics this week so I'll defer other than to say that like in One Leg Drill, I feel more confidently braced behind it as I swing, but it's not like I feel stiff or locked - just firmly connected to the ground and getting more and more force transfer pumping up through the leg while forming a brace to swing behind. That might not be an elegant way to describe it but it's as close as I could summon.
Also, question about the base of the kinetic chain: When the plant foot starts to spin, is that a sign that the body has finished using ground-reaction forces to add energy to the shot?
I think "yes" you can see e.g., in ball golf long drive competitors sometimes their weight lifts completely off the ground. You can see it in GG, Gibson, etc. when they're throwing full speed. That's the effect of the "Decompression" of the plant leg people talk about here- you transferred that ground force up the chain, clearing the front hip and keeping you from blowing out the front knee since you are not "glued" to the Earth.
To elaborate on the source of my question:
I think that the spinning out of the front foot might be the single most vexing part of the throw for me. I feel like, if my weight is truly shifted completely to my front foot, the friction force under my front foot is great enough that I can't rotate through the shot without risking knee injury. In fact, if I'm "crushing the can" and my front foot is being driven into the ground with significantly more force than my weight due to the G-forces of bracing against my body's momentum, the sole of my front foot really feels glued to the ground and I don't feel like I can safely allow my hips/upper body to rotate through the shot.
Yup, same theme as my answer above. You need to "pump" with that plant leg to help start the swing. Plant+pump. It's easier for me to feel in the One Leg Drill because it's impossible to swing through without pumping due to the G-forces/connection to the ground unless the force goes back up the chain. I find it easier to "cheat" in the X-step or standstills because you can kind of leak the force forward by bending the knee (my current problem). OLD helps a lot, and you may need to slow the swing waaaay down until the plant leg pump is reliable in standstills, then x-step.
If the power contribution of the front foot comes from a brief pump of your weight against it earlier in the throw, and you almost "bounce" weight off of the plant foot so that it's not so heavily weighted when it spins, then that would make sense to me, but I don't see any evidence of that in slomo videos of the pros, and I don't read anything to that effect on these forums.
You see motion after the forces act. You also need to remember that if they're "venting" all of the power back up and literally jumping off the ground, it's wasting some amount of force that could otherwise go into the disc. So they're getting a "sweet" spot right between staying glued and jumping up, staying very close to or lightly touching the ground You can sometimes see more obvious instances of the "release" after the force has transferred back up.
See e.g., GG bombing here. He's the most obvious to me and he is also bringing more vertical force (from higher hop), then decompressing more vertically than most pros
And in this gif of GG vs. Eagle, who stays more "low & lateral" consistent with how he brings force into the swing with his striding gait.
You can see it in Gibson, more lateral and peeling out to his right, barely in contact over the heel
Once you're looking for the plant leg action and after you spend time learning from the available golf swing science about ground forces it looks more obvious.
I agree that this latter point isn't as discussed as much here, so I'm very curious if wiser minds think I'm on the right track there too.
There's the axiom in athletic training that, due to how ingrained and deceptive our improper muscle memories can be, over-correcting a technique and then dialing back the over-correction is often easier than trying to slowly correct the technique.
In that vein, for players (like myself) whose muscle memory is to improperly leak force forward by bending the brace knee, do you think there might be benefit in trying to literally spring off of the ground with the brace leg/foot? I will probably end up trying this regardless, but if you know of any finer details to focus on as I mess around with this then I'd be glad to hear them.
TL;DR: I agree, and "yes". I realized that my neuroscience background might contain some useful insights here when trying to dislodge/override stubborn motor habits. Let me give it a try.
That exaggeration idea withstands criticism in academic motor learning literature. It's also why it can be really hard to adjust "home grown" form - our motor systems "chunk" movements into programs they execute. Those programs are dominant, self-dependent, and can re-emerge/compete with the new learning, and that's why sometimes it's better just to "start from scratch" with lots of drilling when learning movements. I still have old movements that are popping into my new developing form that I have to blast with many reps of the desired movement - you need to encode the new movement in the context of the better overall pattern. If you go too long without doing so, it can be harder to encode - the existing "program" is more robust and tougher to modify. If you do it too early, you might not have enough of a program to get a reliable sequence since other pieces are still too raw. I'm just a littleobsessive-compulsive about that and make plenty of mistakes, so YMMV.
Anyway, yes, I think overcorrection/exaggeration can help & is part of why SW22 and others here advocate it. In motor learning it's a "signal-to-noise" principle - motor systems respond better with a very large, distinct contrast to the old move and you adjust over time. Small adjustments are less distinguishable to your sensory feedback circuits and are harder to encode. So that's why e.g. "Crush the can" helps with weight shift - literally dropping from above and shifting into it from behind (and hearing the "crunch") is very different than what most people are used to doing. The crush is still there in developed form- it's just eventually encoded in a smoother, more complete muscle program.
For the plant knee specifically, bodies/brains really dislike pain, and quickly and automatically develop compensatory programs to avoid it. I unfortunately have one involving my plant knee (and previously both knees, but I think we got the rear one worked out). I can use that as an example to describe why habits are so hard to kick whether or not they started from pain.
Recall that the "correct" plant knee action is quite safe and very much like squatting then standing (but quicker like a pogo). However, my plant knee unconsciously bends, and it's "negatively reinforcing" because there is an absence of pain with that action - but it is also a false negative for a pain signal that would not be there if I did the "correct" action (which is probably also better for my knee in the long run). I also know it doesn't hurt because I can do the correct action when I'm not throwing. So intellectually I know it's fine, but my procedural memory won't easily budge - it's outside my control until I can call up a completely different program. It's also a big problem because this means that throwing incorrectly is self-reinforcing and therefore a very hard habit to kick.
This same lesson applies when it's not pain, but another sensation, like "this feels wrong/unfamiliar" or "I don't want to fall", etc. So, it generalizes to many of the things we try to fix in form.
In my case, but the same applies elsewhere, here is a set of principled techniques that are already helping:
1. Not throwing as much: This prevents the old program from reactivating & reinforcing itself in that context. Also nice to give the body a break (which is hard 'cause we love throwin'!)
2. Isolating the desired action in the right context and repeat it - a lot: Pump the front leg in the "shift from behind" in One Leg Drill practice swings and throws. This integrates the desired action with the most recently acquired action in my case.
3. Exaggerate: pogo up and down and hop, pump, then swing. Pump directly vertically, exaggerate more "pop" than I need (but safely - we don't want a Drew Gibson "knee snap"). The swing must always benefit from the pump.
4. Slow down and gain complete control: Do the Slow Swing Drill, guaranteeing (1) the shift from behind and (2) the plant Crush+pump. Do this a lot.
5. Simulate standstills in practice swings with the disc held vertically, guaranteeing the same as above.
6. Return to standstills, throw very slowly. Abort the throw if possible when either the shift or crush+pump are botched (to avoid negatively reinforcing the old action). Repeat until 100% successful, then start to speed it up.
Rinse and repeat as needed. It works faster than it might seem but you need to stick with the plan. I'm very impatient so this phase of learning is especially hard for me. But it works better than just trying to throw all the time.
Again, it's not just about "pain-induced" programs. I will need to give similar treatment to the off arm - in that case it is not a "pain" signal, but an unconscious "familiar feel" signal from months ago. So there, I will still try to find a similar sequence to isolate and repair the arm action as quickly as possible right after I sort out the knee.
I haven't had to be this meticulous the whole time, but this is a principled way to dislodge those incredibly stubborn motor habits. It works best when there's already a good foundation of movements to build on, so the advice there is to get the big pieces on board, and eventually you bump into the "deep work."
...they're getting a "sweet" spot right between staying glued and jumping up, staying very close to or lightly touching the ground You can sometimes see more obvious instances of the "release" after the force has transferred back up.
I might see some very subtle evidences of the pogo effect that you're talking about in those GG videos that you shared. Hard for me to picture the muscle activations at play there though.
Do you think that the exaggerated hop off of the front leg in the throw at 14 minutes and 12 seconds in the following video is more clearly revealing the type of pogo stick decompression that we're looking for, or do you think that it's a weird and unrelated result of uneven footing/careless practice round footwork? In other words, could an attempt to replicate this action be a helpful exercise for someone whose muscle memory is incorrectly bendy/smushy on the plant leg (as an over-correction to understand the correct feeling, not as a target final technique), or is this action some other unrelated and unhelpful rabbit hole?
I might see some very subtle evidences of the pogo effect that you're talking about in those GG videos that you shared. Hard for me to picture the muscle activations at play there though.
I agree. I'd like to see more electromyography data on top players. The "pogo" needs to be very small and fast like a very stiff spring, which is part of why it's hard to see/took me what felt like forever to start getting. It is much easier to feel when using a heavy hammer/sledge/kettlebell and "pumping" to accelerate the swing.
Do you think that the exaggerated hop off of the front leg in the throw at 14 minutes and 12 seconds in the following video is more clearly revealing the type of pogo stick decompression that we're looking for, or do you think that it's a weird and unrelated result of uneven footing/careless practice round footwork? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jgu7WdT3yA&t=851s
You're on the right track - that's a very helpful case to show how efficient his vertical transfer is, but I will break down what I see since there are interesting details and it's worth explaining why he goes to the right.
In the shot at 14:12 you mention, watch closely how his leading hip is clearing up and away after he applies ground pressure- that's what helps accelerate the swing & hip rotation that was started from pogoing off the drive leg. Notice also that he's on a sloped fairway, so when he's getting leverage against the ground and swinging, his posture is carrying his follow through off to the right. The "pogo" is pushing his weight off the ground briefly, and his leg is getting pulled to the right with the swing path as he leverages off the slope and his swing path pulls him around. That's why pros aren't routinely blowing out their plant knees - if they had all that weight still on the ground it'd be a nightmare effect on the soft tissues. But it has to be a small and quick action to accelerate the swing - just not a "knee snap".
Also worth mentioning McBeth himself also seems to have a interesting use of ground pressure to some other pros depending on the shot. He wrote about it once on this forum somewhere. He often downtempos his swing with less plant leg bend and loads more through the ball of the foot. But he still needs to "pump" against the ground to clear the front hip and lead the swing.
I highly recommend this little clip from SW22's form - it has a nice diagram of the ground forces and how he loads back, then compresses and decompresses on the plant leg/pogos to lead the swing.
See also Kyle Berkshire's long drive at the beginning - his plant foot unpeels completely as his weight drives up and his posture brings it off to his left (a different version of what you saw in Mcbeth at 14:12 above).
In other words, could an attempt to replicate this action be a helpful exercise for someone whose muscle memory is incorrectly bendy/smushy on the plant leg (as an over-correction to understand the correct feeling, not as a target final technique), or is this action some other unrelated and unhelpful rabbit hole?
I think the "best" thing to do is to try and find the pump in a One Leg Drill. That's because you need to get the feel for compressing down with your weight and quickly pumping that front leg to accelerate the swing. You can try it with more and more ground force, and indeed, you will eventually find that you come off the ground. I was looking but cannot find an instance where SW22 shows this and his weight goes completely vertically up off the front leg, slightly off the ground (wasn't in One Leg Drill vid) and I practice this too. You need the pump to lead the swing - the goal isn't to come off the ground with a "hop", but to get the leg to act against the ground and transfer thru the hip & up the chain.
...In the shot at 14:12 you mention, watch closely how his leading hip is clearing up and away after he applies ground pressure- that's what helps accelerate the swing & hip rotation that was started from pogoing off the drive leg... The "pogo" is pushing his weight off the ground briefly... That's why pros aren't routinely blowing out their plant knees - if they had all that weight still on the ground it'd be a nightmare effect on the soft tissues...
...See also Kyle Berkshire's long drive at the beginning - his plant foot unpeels completely as his weight drives up and his posture brings it off to his left...
I think the "best" thing to do is to try and find the pump in a One Leg Drill. That's because you need to get the feel for compressing down with your weight and quickly pumping that front leg to accelerate the swing. You can try it with more and more ground force, and indeed, you will eventually find that you come off the ground.
So the goal isn't to "hop" per se, but when the plant leg pump is done correctly, do you feel weightless, or in other words as if there is very little pressure between your plant foot and the ground, when the plant foot pivots forward directly after you release the disc?
So the goal isn't to "hop" per se, but when the plant leg pump is done correctly, do you feel weightless, or in other words as if there is very little pressure between your plant foot and the ground, when the plant foot pivots forward directly after you release the disc?
Just wanted to add - the action should feel roughly equal and opposite between the drive side and plant side.
The "bad" swings often occur for me if my drive side mechanics are off, and then the plant knee compensates by pumping *too* hard, which looks more like a knee snap and is hard on the front hip.
