Rail lines with Discs and thumb/wrist placements

[rhatton1]

Just realised the numbering might be confusing so have done again in the approximate positions from Hubs drawing, it pretty mch matches this exactly, I just wish we could get high enough frame rate to see the bits in between 7 and 8 and 8 and 9 clearly. -

 

[rhatton1]

I'm sorry for the sizing by the way - can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong?

I'm embedding an imgur link at the moment - do i need to make the picture a certain size before uploading to Imgur?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, you need to resize it before you upload it, I think I try to keep it 800 pixels wide or tall or less. It helps to click on view actual size before you save your file, most times it's zoomed to fit your window.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Big is good for me, I have a 28" monitor. The little circle&line for the person reference I believe are adding more confusion than anything.

I really like having the OH shot lined up with the diagram though - it fills in some mental gaps.

 

[rhatton1]

Stick man taken out and resized:

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

So here's my question to the wise old men or at least old men:

1. Is it the the redirection that's slowing the disc down that makes it easier to hold longer?
2. Going center chest (shot 6) before extending which moves the arc in relation to your body?
3. Wide Rail self corrects posture just enough to spine tile (shot 8)?
4. Moving the arc to an easier orientation to hold?

Perhaps all or some of the above? I feel like if I could piece the keys together that make the difference between:

Straight:

Wide:

I could potentially correct my straight pull to hold later. The thing is I've thrown thousands of straight pulls and I have never felt the type of power that I get with an average wide rail. I've had some 450' shots straight pull - but it's a STRUGGLE... I mean a real clamp down battle to hold late enough to get that type of PING!!! that can go 450'. Sometimes I will squeeze my fingers together tightly on the rim, with my left hand to create the tightest power grip I can get and then it's more repeatable to get the late hold.

I'll try to get out today and see if I can tilt the spine more and throw flat and recreate the wide rail magic.

 

[Mocheez]

I think it is the thumb push/key turn that assists in holding the disc longer.

 

[Mocheez]

So here's my question to the wise old men or at least old men:

1. Is it the the redirection that's slowing the disc down that makes it easier to hold longer?
2. Going center chest (shot 6) before extending which moves the arc in relation to your body?
3. Wide Rail self corrects posture just enough to spine tile (shot 8)?
4. Moving the arc to an easier orientation to hold?

Perhaps all or some of the above? I feel like if I could piece the keys together that make the difference between:

I could potentially correct my straight pull to hold later. The thing is I've thrown thousands of straight pulls and I have never felt the type of power that I get with an average wide rail. I've had some 450' shots straight pull - but it's a STRUGGLE... I mean a real clamp down battle to hold late enough to get that type of PING!!! that can go 450'. Sometimes I will squeeze my fingers together tightly on the rim, with my left hand to create the tightest power grip I can get and then it's more repeatable to get the late hold.

I'll try to get out today and see if I can tilt the spine more and throw flat and recreate the wide rail magic.

Not sure if you've ever seen this thread from DGR but I think it might answer some of those questions... https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25331&hilit=physics+trick

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Not sure if you've ever seen this thread from DGR but I think it might answer some of those questions... https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25331&hilit=physics+trick

Never saw that and I think it answers the question.

Slowing the disc to load the wrist dramatically in the wide rail, along with drastically changing the direction fixes the problem because I can very easily take too much velocity into the last 2" of rim pull - that I can't hold the disc.

With a straight pull, especially if you're starting to generate from the hips - and plant hard - you get more extension speed than you can hold onto. I've been in a "it's a wash" scenario, where I create a good chunk of momentum for my arm that gets to a half-hit with more speed.

Use less momentum, hold later = same distance.

THE DIRECTIONAL CHANGE OF THE HAND ALLOWS YOU TO "THROW" THE ANGULAR VELOCITY IN THE FORWARD DIRECTION.

If you don't get to the FULL directional change, you don't get that angular velocity that seriously turbo charges the disc.

This is one of those lessons I seem to learn, then forget as I start improving other aspects of my form.

Finally I want to point out something that I've said many times before: at the end of the hit - I feel like I'm trying to hold on, not push forward. I'm holding against the directional change that Blake was talking about. That's why I still don't understand thumb pushing exactly. I feel like I'm almost pulling the disc backwards at the hit.

 

[rhatton1]

I think your first paragraph sums it up for me. Straight line I am still trying too had to thro it. Rail line redirects my thought process into trying to guide the forward momentum and the pivot/ push. Straight line I donn think I've ever full hit it. Rail line I am sure I have as its gone miles and it has felt like I've pushed/ ejected it on its way ( I can't do this with anything more than a teebied and maybe a beast on a roller) it's just like i am helping the disc to do its thing rather than fighting with it. I'm not convinced there is as much power potential with the rail but I believe it is easier to throw it.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Well that pretty much solves the mystery. Wide rail pauses hand speed which makes it substantially easier to hold later.

Straight line, it's very easy to over estimate what you can hold on to and slip out.

I went out with the goal of throwing some straight pull stand-stills and I focused on feeling the pull against the rim. This is pulling from the nose to 3:00. It's definitely a pulling on the rim feeling. Those shots sailed.

As soon as I start adding in other variables it's very easy to lose the pulling sensation.

I believe that the loading wrist elbow extension promotes a similar thing - in that you are bending the wrist pretty late in the process, which slows the hand speed down and often leads to some booming shots.

The point though, is that slow hands are able to undergo that violent redirection and maintain grip on the rim. Fast hands will most likely blow off the rim when it comes time to pull back to 3-4:00.

See for yourself, throw a shot with your hands moving slow enough that there's no question you are pulling back on the disc.

 

[rhatton1]

Linked by the PDga and 400 Facebook shares in just under an hour, your site must be getting some traffic today nice one.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Linked by the PDga and 400 Facebook shares in just under an hour, your site must be getting some traffic today nice one.

6837 views - now if they'd only disable ad-blocker!

 

[Twistedhorse]

Stick man taken out and resized:

in wide rail do you actively move your right hand to the side in the reachback ? to me, it seems like paul M is doing wide rail, but when I see him throw in slow motion it looks like his disc is still after the xstep ? like almost looks like he is walking around the disc, but still somehow manage to get wide rail?

 

[sidewinder22]

in wide rail do you actively move your right hand to the side in the reachback ? to me, it seems like paul M is doing wide rail, but when I see him throw in slow motion it looks like his disc is still after the xstep ? like almost looks like he is walking around the disc, but still somehow manage to get wide rail?

Depends on how much the shoulders turn back. If you don't turn them back then you push your hand wide, otherwise it's lagged straight back.

 

[spikel]

Easiest way to discuss:

I'm honestly not sure what exactly it is that changes the feel - but look at how far out front mike is in frame 8. I would bet if that was shot with a higher frame rate, we'd see him holding even farther out than it is in that shot.

When I throw with a straight pull, perhaps because of needing to pull through wider for room for the disc... I really don't know... but the hit is happening away from me more and not as far our front.

Avery showing roughly the best I can hope for with my straight pull - and when you are putting the hit there, you are dependent on a weak spot in our biology to hold late on the rim.

The farther you more the disc "right" as I say, the stronger the grip becomes.

The feeling is one of the disc just disappearing from your grip.

Yesterday on Hole 5 at my home course, I tried the wide rail with minimal x-step and I threw it farther than I've ever put it on a limited window golf line. I'd guess 400-430'. Typical throw for me is 350-360' on that hole.

It's not a cure all - I miss with some part of it still, but the distance is real and repeatable and pretty effortless.

I have a question. In this picture, the guy's feet are pointing almost backwards from the target as he runs up. I've been told to keep feet basically on a 90 degree angle to the target as you run up to maintain momentum. Is this something unique to wide rail? Is this the right way to do it for wide rail but not the normal close to chest but straight pull through?

 

[sidewinder22]

I have a question. In this picture, the guy's feet are pointing almost backwards from the target as he runs up. I've been told to keep feet basically on a 90 degree angle to the target as you run up to maintain momentum. Is this something unique to wide rail? Is this the right way to do it for wide rail but not the normal close to chest but straight pull through?

Has nothing to do the arm swing. All the pros use some variation of wide rail.

Your unique hip flexibility/mobility/anatomy makes a big difference. 90 degrees with the rear foot is too restricted unless you are naturally pigeon toed. 180 degrees makes it very hard to leverage forward unless you are naturally duck footed. Somewhere in the middle around 135 degrees is the sweet spot for most people allowing for good balance of range of motion and leverage. This will also vary somewhat on the dynamics of your speed and trajectory and how far you want to be able to turn your hips back. How far you turn the rear foot back also affects how far the front foot turns back into the plant.

 

[spikel]

Has nothing to do the arm swing. All the pros use some variation of wide rail.

Your unique hip flexibility/mobility/anatomy makes a big difference. 90 degrees with the rear foot is too restricted unless you are naturally pigeon toed. 180 degrees makes it very hard to leverage forward unless you are naturally duck footed. Somewhere in the middle around 135 degrees is the sweet spot for most people allowing for good balance of range of motion and leverage. This will also vary somewhat on the dynamics of your speed and trajectory and how far you want to be able to turn your hips back. How far you turn the rear foot back also affects how far the front foot turns back into the plant.

Thank you! I find that is how my left foot wants to rotate, but I'd been watching videos saying to never "rotate backwards away back to the target". I guess that's because a lot of people do rotate their entire body away from the target causing them to lose momentum. Will be taking all this to the field soon, fascinating stuff. Disc golf is so hard!

I assume Eagle is pulling through very smooth and slow until the second to last image when the disc gets to his chest. Otherwise he would lose grip of the disc too early, correct?