Rail lines with Discs and thumb/wrist placements

[Krinkncrank]

By 'wide rail', do you mean like David Feldberg?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

By 'wide rail', do you mean like David Feldberg?

No, like Nate Doss - and the rail line that Rhatton1 posted above.

The thing is that you have to close your stance down drastically otherwise you throw way right (RH).

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

My attempt at the wide rail:



it's the slow motion one.

A longer video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvVlP7ytfcE

 

[Krinkncrank]

Oh, I guess that is the same way I'm am trying to throw too. Wide as in 'reach out wide' , keep a closed stance. Seems to work well, but a bitch to learn. One of the harder bits I think is doing the x step to arrive at the closed stance. The closed stance is sorta at odds with the direction of body travel otherwise.

 

[sidewinder22]

Here's what Blake drew with the hand on the disc. I'm not sure how nuanced the illustration actually is(don't think it is very much), but to me this looks like a pure hyzer or the disc is aimed to 1 o'clock. I think the important part to take away from this is that the hand/disc come inward inside the power zone/arc and then outward and the hand finishes/follows through wide. The hand/disc start and finish in a fairly straight line(you can extend the inward rail line straight to the release point). You have to get your body into certain position to make this happen. For me the Clement video on Hogan Power Move where he talks about getting your body out of the way to have a great access to swing throw was the key.

When you watch the top guys throw, the hand/disc stays straighter or more to the left, extending the arc forward more than around. So the red/yellow/orange line would be a straighter line pointed more at 11-12 o'clock instead of curving around toward 2 o'clock. Here you can see Ken's arm releases closer to 11 0'clock and the disc is going straight.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Re:Nuance of the graph... it's off, the disc does change direction - that much I can feel, but it's not so bulbous. And as you say, it happens more left in the picture than that in real life.

 

[sidewinder22]

That ^ Beto shot was a pure hyzer.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

There is a combination of closed shoulder and wide rail, that I am starting to see pretty insane results from.

I threw a round with TalbotTrojan tonight, so he got my non-stop ramblings about it - and we probably threw 100 drives in the round. Yesterday I threw with my buddy Ryan, and even he was left scratching his head. "I can see the disc going way more, I just don't get it."

He then called me that night to try to get it more.

The best way to describe this idea is to start with the following statement (which is a paraphrase of Blake) - The vast majority of players are slipping.

It's not a matter of hand strength, it's where we put the arc in relation to us. I slip out at 3:00 with a straight pull unless I throw a teeBird or thinner. Pretty frustrating to do all this stuff right and then have the disc missing the last 2" of insane power.

Add all the force you want, but if you slip out, you lose. Impeccable timing, hips, extension, etc... But you have to hold late.

So what I stumbled into in the field was the wide rail actually remaps the position of the arc so that the pulling around the nose happens slower earlier in the arc - and because of that, you always end up with the grip still locked tight at 3:00. The almost stopping motion of the disc as it drastically comes into the pec has a reason: kill the hand speed so you don't screw up getting to the hit, and load the wrist.

The effect of this is that you feel way less effort into the shot, and the last bit of pull rockets the disc out more in front of you.

The physical "why" it's easier to hold later, is we've put the hit more out front of the shoulder. Take a disc and hold the 3:00 position of the rim where a typical straight pull hit is happening. This position is somewhere out front, but also left of your body in respect to a teeBird.

Now look at the way you're trying to hold the rim. At the 3:00 position the fingers are being pulled open by the angle of the arm/wrist/rim.

Now just move your entire arm 1 foot to the right. Suddenly, the grip isn't being pried open at 3:00. Remapping the arc more to this position increases your ability to hold later in the hit.

The complete picture is still hazy to me, because I have to come in so closed to the plant that it feels risky in a round and less accurate.

I think there is something exciting there though, and I am going to keep working on it.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

This position is somewhere out front, but also left of your body in respect to a teeBird

Uhg, autocorrect: This position is somewhere out front, but also left of your body in respect to a TEEBOX.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

There is a combination of closed shoulder and wide rail, that I am starting to see pretty insane results from.

I threw a round with TalbotTrojan tonight, so he got my non-stop ramblings about it - and we probably threw 100 drives in the round. Yesterday I threw with my buddy Ryan, and even he was left scratching his head. "I can see the disc going way more, I just don't get it."

He then called me that night to try to get it more.

The best way to describe this idea is to start with the following statement (which is a paraphrase of Blake) - The vast majority of players are slipping.

It's not a matter of hand strength, it's where we put the arc in relation to us. I slip out at 3:00 with a straight pull unless I throw a teeBird or thinner. Pretty frustrating to do all this stuff right and then have the disc missing the last 2" of insane power.

Add all the force you want, but if you slip out, you lose. Impeccable timing, hips, extension, etc... But you have to hold late.

So what I stumbled into in the field was the wide rail actually remaps the position of the arc so that the pulling around the nose happens slower earlier in the arc - and because of that, you always end up with the grip still locked tight at 3:00. The almost stopping motion of the disc as it drastically comes into the pec has a reason: kill the hand speed so you don't screw up getting to the hit, and load the wrist.

The effect of this is that you feel way less effort into the shot, and the last bit of pull rockets the disc out more in front of you.

The physical "why" it's easier to hold later, is we've put the hit more out front of the shoulder. Take a disc and hold the 3:00 position of the rim where a typical straight pull hit is happening. This position is somewhere out front, but also left of your body in respect to a teeBird.

Now look at the way you're trying to hold the rim. At the 3:00 position the fingers are being pulled open by the angle of the arm/wrist/rim.

Now just move your entire arm 1 foot to the right. Suddenly, the grip isn't being pried open at 3:00. Remapping the arc more to this position increases your ability to hold later in the hit.

The complete picture is still hazy to me, because I have to come in so closed to the plant that it feels risky in a round and less accurate.

I think there is something exciting there though, and I am going to keep working on it.

I had fun playing around. It still feels way unnatural to me but I have some bad habits to unlearn. Let's be sure to get out soon and work on it again.

 

[slowplastic]

The physical "why" it's easier to hold later, is we've put the hit more out front of the shoulder. Take a disc and hold the 3:00 position of the rim where a typical straight pull hit is happening. This position is somewhere out front, but also left of your body in respect to a teeBird.

Now look at the way you're trying to hold the rim. At the 3:00 position the fingers are being pulled open by the angle of the arm/wrist/rim.

Now just move your entire arm 1 foot to the right. Suddenly, the grip isn't being pried open at 3:00. Remapping the arc more to this position increases your ability to hold later in the hit.

I'm kind of confused on why to move your arm to the right at the hit point on this new arc...are your hips/shoulders opened up more to allow for this? Is the feeling of this arc for you an inward pull (wide reach back then inwards towards power pocket), then an outwards arc, or is it inwards then just uncoil all the levers...or something else?

As well, what is the feeling on your fingers at the release...is it a tug or push or what? It's so difficult to try to understand how to get that last bit of power....

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Easiest way to discuss:

I'm honestly not sure what exactly it is that changes the feel - but look at how far out front mike is in frame 8. I would bet if that was shot with a higher frame rate, we'd see him holding even farther out than it is in that shot.

When I throw with a straight pull, perhaps because of needing to pull through wider for room for the disc... I really don't know... but the hit is happening away from me more and not as far our front.

Avery showing roughly the best I can hope for with my straight pull - and when you are putting the hit there, you are dependent on a weak spot in our biology to hold late on the rim.

The farther you more the disc "right" as I say, the stronger the grip becomes.

The feeling is one of the disc just disappearing from your grip.

Yesterday on Hole 5 at my home course, I tried the wide rail with minimal x-step and I threw it farther than I've ever put it on a limited window golf line. I'd guess 400-430'. Typical throw for me is 350-360' on that hole.

It's not a cure all - I miss with some part of it still, but the distance is real and repeatable and pretty effortless.

 

[Dan Ensor]

The farther you more the disc "right" as I say, the stronger the grip becomes.

After you move past where Avery and Mike are, you're past the power zone, and can't get power through the hit. It's like trying to karate chop a board in half by hitting a board vs. hitting through the board.

I used to have a softball hitting video about "points of contact" that really hits on this ... I guess it was deleted. Information was just way too good.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

After you move past where Avery and Mike are, you're past the power zone, and can't get power through the hit. It's like trying to karate chop a board in half by hitting a board vs. hitting through the board.

I used to have a softball hitting video about "points of contact" that really hits on this ... I guess it was deleted. Information was just way too good.

I'm not saying right of Mike or Avery, I'm saying my release point is left of their's when I throw with a straight pull (this is a problem). By throwing the wide rail like Mike, I' finally getting more right to the correct spot.

 

[sidewinder22]

Where's right, or left, what?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Meant Right/Left etc from the top down like this.

When I throw with a straight reach back, it seems that wide rim discs don't make it past the red spot without a herculean effort. For whatever reason, the wide rail makes it much easier to get there.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

So here's some data points... I pulled these from some recent field footage.

Straight Pull

Wide Rail

I know it all happes very fast, but to my eye - it seems like for whatever reason it's easier to hold later. My shoulders are about in the same alignment for all these shots - but in the wide rail, holding later.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your balance looks better in the rail pics, more tilted forward over the disc and toes, which I think the wide rail helps promote along with being able to get a better power pocket(getting the body out of the way) to accelerate later.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Your balance looks better in the rail pics, more tilted forward over the disc and toes, which I think the wide rail helps promote along with being able to get a better power pocket(getting the body out of the way) to accelerate later.

That makes sense to me. When I tilt the spine forward to throw hyzer, I tend to get similar results and I always put it to being able to hold the disc easier. Such a relatively small adjustment and it really bumps up the power.

 

[rhatton1]