Reid's Journey to Backhand Mastery

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, big time rounding, the top of your backswing is almost 90 degrees off as you are throwing almost straight to the right while Wiggins is throwing straight at us into the camera, and your body positions are almost the same. Your body is setup way behind your front heel/foot, so your weight is not setup forward on the front leg/foot at all. You need to setup your swing on the front foot/leg, not the back foot/leg. Hang in the Door Frame for awhile, your trajectory should be straight out from the door frame and your stance should not be in the way or put your body in the way of the door frame and the trajectory line.

 

[UhhNegative]

Yeah the rounding is probably the biggest thing holding me back, huh? My question is on my weight shift/bracing. I know I am starting with my weight on the back foot, but it appears I'm catching it on the front side, right? In the swing I appear braced on the front side to my eyes, but let me know if I'm doing it right or wrong. Next goal for me needs to be forcing myself to not round and focus on that. Won't be back until I have it fixed.

 

[UhhNegative]

I'm really struggling with figuring out how to not round. It seems like I have to put concious effort at my shoulder joint in order for the angle to not collapse when I start the swing. Like I don't understand how I can keep the disc wide when my shoulders are coming forward without using my shoulder muscles to kind of lock it into place to prevent collapsing.

 

[UhhNegative]

Seem like if my upper body is starting to rotate, but I'm not consciously closing my elbow/bringing it forward, then I HAVE to round. But if I start closing my elbow then it doesn't seem like the force will be able to transfer from the ground up because I short circuit the kinetic chain by moving the elbow early.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm really struggling with figuring out how to not round. It seems like I have to put concious effort at my shoulder joint in order for the angle to not collapse when I start the swing. Like I don't understand how I can keep the disc wide when my shoulders are coming forward without using my shoulder muscles to kind of lock it into place to prevent collapsing.

It should be fairly locked into place with elbow forward. All the elbow has to do is allow the lower arm/disc to hinge in and out then and that should be a relatively straight line on the disc path.

 

[UhhNegative]

It should be fairly locked into place with elbow forward. All the elbow has to do is allow the lower arm/disc to hinge in and out then and that should be a relatively straight line on the disc path.

Ok so I should be applying some effort to keeping that in place (police battering ram example)? I was kind of abandoning the disc to gravity, but I suppose that only applies to the backswing? So at the peak of my reachback I need to try and maintain my upper arm to shoulders angle until it keeps opening through the throw?

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok so I should be applying some effort to keeping that in place (police battering ram example)? I was kind of abandoning the disc to gravity, but I suppose that only applies to the backswing? So at the peak of my reachback I need to try and maintain my upper arm to shoulders angle until it keeps opening through the throw?

Correct. The upper arm will collapse some even as you resist it, this gives you a plyometric bounce/spring effect with the muscles loading/unloading.

 

[UhhNegative]

Correct. The upper arm will collapse some even as you resist it, this gives you a plyometric bounce/spring effect with the muscles loading/unloading.

I see. I'm guessing that is what is being referred to when talking about some of the more advanced techniques that the super long throwers are using? So I would expect to see some of that bounce/slight rounding during Simon or Eagle's throw? Probably only noticeable on higher FPS cameras.

I can see now how semi-locking that arm position allows the twisting of the hip/shoulders to actually add power to the shot. Otherwise the hips and shoulders would just be adding rounding to the shot, losing all that power, like I probably do, haha.

 

[sidewinder22]

I see. I'm guessing that is what is being referred to when talking about some of the more advanced techniques that the super long throwers are using? So I would expect to see some of that bounce/slight rounding during Simon or Eagle's throw? Probably only noticeable on higher FPS cameras.

I can see now how semi-locking that arm position allows the twisting of the hip/shoulders to actually add power to the shot. Otherwise the hips and shoulders would just be adding rounding to the shot, losing all that power, like I probably do, haha.

Simon and Eagle are more like anti-rounding like KJ below. Rounding doesn't allow the disc to come forward into the power pocket/close to your center and change the direction(rapid change of acceleration) of the disc arc away from your center. Note how KJ's green arc reverses at his center axis(White line), while the Rounder on the bottom green arc continues in the same arc direction across his center axis and center of mass direction line, so there is very little change of direction or acceleration.

 

[UhhNegative]

I guess I mean they don't round, but they do allow the upper arm to collapse a little bit for that spring-like effect, but still keeping the disc wide of the body. Just a guess, but that's way beyond my discing abilities. Still just trying to get to that comfortable 400' because I never need more than that on a course anyway.

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess I mean they don't round, but they do allow the upper arm to collapse a little bit for that spring-like effect, but still keeping the disc wide of the body. Just a guess, but that's way beyond my discing abilities. Still just trying to get to that comfortable 400' because I never need more than that on a course anyway.

Yeah, it also helps to have really skinny shoulders and orangutan arms.

 

[UhhNegative]

Yeah, it also helps to have really skinny shoulders and orangutan arms.

True, I'm a 5'9" ex-bodybuilder with short arms, narrow shoulders, pidgeon toed on my plant leg, and can't rotate my throwing arm wrist. But I think I could still throw decently far if I fix my rounding and get my hips into the throw.

 

[sidewinder22]

True, I'm a 5'9" ex-bodybuilder with short arms, narrow shoulders, pidgeon toed on my plant leg, and can't rotate my throwing arm wrist. But I think I could still throw decently far if I fix my rounding and get my hips into the throw.

For sure, but IMO you will be much better off watching Steve Brinster and GG's form.

 

[UhhNegative]

For sure, but IMO you will be much better off watching Steve Brinster and GG's form.

Hmm yeah I've never experimented with a hop, but I could give it a try. I think if anything I'm most closest in structure to Drew Gibson or like McBeth + 20lbs haha.

Thanks for all your help here in this thread and in these forums in general!

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmm yeah I've never experimented with a hop, but I could give it a try. I think if anything I'm most closest in structure to Drew Gibson or like McBeth + 20lbs haha.

Thanks for all your help here in this thread and in these forums in general!

 

[UhhNegative]

How does Dave Feldberg throw so far with such little elbow bend? I think that less elbow bend would be overall better for me, if I could achieve it, because of my unique elbow anatomy. But how is he able to develop a whip without bending his elbow much at all?

 

[sidewinder22]

Because Force still = Mass * Acceleration. The arm ends up fully extended either way at release so the effective lever length is the same, as well as your counterweight or body "weight" or Force applied to the disc across the arm lever.

The more you bend the elbow, the more it cams off the tension like a compound bow. This allows for an easier/faster acceleration as the weight force tensioned to the lower arm/disc is cammed off, but ends up as more radial acceleration or spin on a disc rather than linear exit speed when all the weight force is uncammed back at the hit. I believe this difference in spin is also why Feldy throws more overstable discs to compensate for less spin than the other pros

Imagine Feldy using a 3' long 15lb. sledgehammer, while the other pros are using a 1' long 5lb. sledgehammer, and they are both hitting the nail with about the same force behind it. It's about the same force because the force comes from you countering the hammer, your weight(Mass*Gravity). During the throw your weight/force levered to the disc should be experiencing a couple extra G-forces through braced ground force reaction.

Imagine as if your body is the Tilted Spiral or Graviton machine, and the arm/disc is the person along for the ride in the machine. The machine/body still needs to be grounded/braced to make that G-force effect for the arm/disc inside to feel it or be applied/levered to it.

 

[UhhNegative]

Because Force still = Mass * Acceleration. The arm ends up fully extended either way at release so the effective lever length is the same, as well as your counterweight or body "weight" or Force applied to the disc across the arm lever.

The more you bend the elbow, the more it cams off the tension like a compound bow. This allows for an easier/faster acceleration as the weight force tensioned to the lower arm/disc is cammed off, but ends up as more radial acceleration or spin on a disc rather than linear exit speed when all the weight force is uncammed back at the hit. I believe this difference in spin is also why Feldy throws more overstable discs to compensate for less spin than the other pros

Imagine Feldy using a 3' long 15lb. sledgehammer, while the other pros are using a 1' long 5lb. sledgehammer, and they are both hitting the nail with about the same force behind it. It's about the same force because the force comes from you countering the hammer, your weight(Mass*Gravity). During the throw your weight/force levered to the disc should be experiencing a couple extra G-forces through braced ground force reaction.

Imagine as if your body is the Tilted Spiral or Graviton machine, and the arm/disc is the person along for the ride in the machine. The machine/body still needs to be grounded/braced to make that G-force effect for the arm/disc inside to feel it or be applied/levered to it.

Ok, but I thought the advantage of using the elbow as a cam was precisely so that you could have more acceleration at the hit. You are saying it that it does add more force to the throw, but in the form of angular momentum instead of linear momentum? I can't see how Feldy would be able to get the same acceleration on the disc as hitting with a more closed elbow.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, but I thought the advantage of using the elbow as a cam was precisely so that you could have more acceleration at the hit. You are saying it that it does add more force to the throw, but in the form of angular momentum instead of linear momentum? I can't see how Feldy would be able to get the same acceleration on the disc as hitting with a more closed elbow.

The main advantages of bending the elbow are being able to keep the disc on a straighter line/aiming, easier to hold onto the disc and leverage angle/spin. Faster acceleration during the later part of the throw really doesn't matter when exit speed/force is the same at release. The bent elbow starts slower, but ends the same speed as the acceleration was faster later, so the acceleration * the mass applied is evened out throughout the throw and equal the same force/speed. I also think more mass is being applied with less bend, so there's that tradeoff between some mass vs acceleration.

 

[UhhNegative]

Well, **** daylight savings time, now I can more or less only play on the weekend outside. So now, it's time to film some drills and work on putting. This week I'm going to work exclusively on the one leg drill and will get some film on that.

I haven't had a lot of time to play so mostly just been doing putting/approach practice every day for a little after work.