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"Secret Technique" statement, just curious

RowingBoats

Eagle Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Messages
987
I find this quote by Blake interesting:

-most body motions are over-rated. i've found a 20 degree body rotation with no reach back can still yield a 275'+ throw with a small arm twitch and using no leg power. increasing the body rotation on reach back to 90 degrees seems to add about 40' (~15%). adding 18"+ of reach back seems to add about 25' (~9%). adding a full run up adds about 40' (~15%). those three things together are noticeable but if you work from a 275' baseline with a midrange disc, a full body rotation, full reach back, and utilizing the legs are responsible for roughly 27.6% of the throw. read as: about 10" of motion mainly focusing on the wrist, hand, and fingers is roughly 72.4% of the throw.

Have we overlooked the importance of the "wrist, hand, and fingers" in the throw?
This popped up again on the main page, and I remember reading it and feeling like I didn't really agree before.

How do you all feel about this quote? True? Nah? I DO believe people overestimate the importance and actual distance gains that an x-step adds, but that isn't entirely the point he was making.

Quick edit: I am not at all saying an x-step is not going to add distance. Clearly it is the vastly preferred way to throw far and Im sure it does help, when done right. Personally I just like being able to not give a s*** about 99% of lies I have to work with.
 
To me the whole concept of 'no leg power' doesn't make sense. Even doing the 20 degree turn doesn't decouple your legs from the ground lol.

Maybe this is just a dumb thing to even talk about.
 
I assume you don't think Blake's post has much truth to it then eh?
Blake (and the DGR forums) was pretty much the pinnacle of disc golf form thought circa 2008 or so afaik. More people have gotten involved since then and better/more video allows you to see things you couldn't easily see before.

When dg form science gets to the point where it's basically mature*, I'm sure not all of Blake's ideas will hold water. Hard to argue that he isn't part of the foundation though.

I think the quoted comments were about a hypothetical individual using Blake's idealized form and ignored varieties in lever lengths and athletic abilities. I'm pretty sure a lot of his baseline distances were assuming people were throwing teebirds too. Take it for what it is.

*Maybe we're there already, but I'll defer to the experts.
 
Blake (and the DGR forums) was pretty much the pinnacle of disc golf form thought circa 2008 or so afaik. More people have gotten involved since then and better/more video allows you to see things you couldn't easily see before.

When dg form science gets to the point where it's basically mature*, I'm sure not all of Blake's ideas will hold water. Hard to argue that he isn't part of the foundation though.

I think the quoted comments were about a hypothetical individual using Blake's idealized form and ignored varieties in lever lengths and athletic abilities. I'm pretty sure a lot of his baseline distances were assuming people were throwing teebirds too. Take it for what it is.

*Maybe we're there already, but I'll defer to the experts.
Ya, agreed...I just think this particular statement is SO against the modern grain that it seemed interesting to me. Blake obviously could throw and contributed a lot of good info, so I also thought it would be weird if there was nothing to this.

I haven't gone back and tried to play with arm actions isolated from larger movements for a long while.
 
I assume you don't think Blake's post has much truth to it then eh?
I really don't know I have a different outlook on form. Most coaches and form people disagree with me on technique. At the end of the day it really comes down to results. I know how much I can add with a run up, and I have played with many people just like me.

I think because a disc is a fixed diameter when you introduce different human geometry into the throw there's weird things that can happen. There's definitely an anatomically optimal length of forearm to upper arm to shoulder width, and hip mobility, expressed as some kind of ratio, what that is I don't know, but that's the secret sauce, optimizing your own lever lengths to create the most mechanical advantage and that means there's not one optimal swing shape or run up speed. It's murky and becoming more transparent as things like motion capture and high speed footage and autism come in to the analysis.

It's like drag racing, simple things get really damn complicated almost instantly when you go deeper than measured baselines. Tire contact comes to mind, reducing pressure does not improve the percentage of tire making contact with the ground within a range of enough to support the sidewall but below cupping the outer diameter. Everyone who hasn't experienced this phenomenon will lose this bet, even Goodyear scientists had to do some soul searching when this physics anomaly was proven. Took them years to catch up to Micky Thompson and most of it was because they were dead wrong about the physics.

Disc golf form is in a similar situation. You have lots people of various skill levels and analysis capability all throwing data out there and I think some coaches and form gurus will find themselves backtracking as the consensus becomes more solidified.
 
This popped up again on the main page, and I remember reading it and feeling like I didn't really agree before.

How do you all feel about this quote? True? Nah? I DO believe people overestimate the importance and actual distance gains that an x-step adds, but that isn't entirely the point he was making.

Quick edit: I am not at all saying an x-step is not going to add distance. Clearly it is the vastly preferred way to throw far and Im sure it does help, when done right. Personally I just like being able to not give a s*** about 99% of lies I have to work with.
The specifics might be questionable, but I think it's on the right track. Maybe a different way to look at it is there's a maximum efficiency in the "business end" of the throw that needs to be there before adding on to it. I've always been of the mind that we don't focus enough in the last 6-12" of the throw and spend more time talking about coiling, bracing, etc.
It's not that those things aren't important, but if they're feeding a poor snap/release, those other things won't be as helpful
 
The specifics might be questionable, but I think it's on the right track. Maybe a different way to look at it is there's a maximum efficiency in the "business end" of the throw that needs to be there before adding on to it. I've always been of the mind that we don't focus enough in the last 6-12" of the throw and spend more time talking about coiling, bracing, etc.
It's not that those things aren't important, but if they're feeding a poor snap/release, those other things won't be as helpful
See, this is kinda what I was hoping came up, thanks! And I feel like that is what Dan Beto was trying to say too.

To me, his statement almost reminds me of describing the Beto Drill, but...can y'all throw a mid 275' like that?!
 
See, this is kinda what I was hoping came up, thanks! And I feel like that is what Dan Beto was trying to say too.

To me, his statement almost reminds me of describing the Beto Drill, but...can y'all throw a mid 275' like that?!
I'll make a note to try tomorrow and report back. I use a walk wheel so there won't be any gps distance fudging.
 
we can address this simply.

Equal and opposite.

You can only generate so much forward force with only so much backwards force.

So your brace resistance has to be equal to the level of energy you are directing into the throw.
 
I'll make a note to try tomorrow and report back. I use a walk wheel so there won't be any gps distance fudging.
I'm gonna go back and work on that drill too sometime today/tomorrow.

I do have something of a "beto drill" swing that I use every round but its just for like 175' ish putter upshots. Admittedly it is piss easy to throw that far with no 'reachback' so maybe I can throw farther than I think like that.

But it still feels like a body move, not an arm move.
 
I'm gonna go back and work on that drill too sometime today/tomorrow.

I do have something of a "beto drill" swing that I use every round but its just for like 175' ish putter upshots. Admittedly it is piss easy to throw that far with no 'reachback' so maybe I can throw farther than I think like that.

But it still feels like a body move, not an arm move.

Make sure to practice the power tripod.

It's kinda like the double move, but you brace 2 times in the throw for a double brace.


pocket throw is actually insanely easy if you focus on good push out and a good wrist pop.
 
Make sure to practice the power tripod.

It's kinda like the double move, but you brace 2 times in the throw for a double brace.


pocket throw is actually insanely easy if you focus on good push out and a good wrist pop.
Aight homie, what is the power tripod? I haven't heard that one I don't think.
 
There's no way I'm getting 275' with any disc that way, more like 75' ☹️ Though that 1 inch reachback might be a good drill.
I don't we need as much arm reach back as common technique would suggest. The uncoiling and flinging out of the lower arm does most of the work. This is pretty evident in players like Calvin and Emerson Keith

I can get a mid out past 200' pretty easily from a standstill with a bent elbow, and I'm older (> 40) and mechanically disadvantaged (wide shoulders, short arms). 275' isn't happening, 225' is doable though. Being able to hit the disc is key (I've been playing for a long time and still don't do it right)
 
we can address this simply.

Equal and opposite.

You can only generate so much forward force with only so much backwards force.

So your brace resistance has to be equal to the level of energy you are directing into the throw.
I don't think this is entirely true.

There are components other than the brace (and i say this as a strong believer in the value of using a good brace to help transfer your body momentum into the disc). If you were floating free in the vacuum of space, could you propel a disc away from you? Of course you could. Your muscles can still apply force without being braced against anything external.

You'd move backwards (like a rifle recoil) as the disc moved forwards, of course, but relatively slowly since your mass is ~400 times that of the disc. I don't think it unlikely that you could get the disc up to 30mph just by coiling and uncoiling against your inertia (though obviously that's just a guess). Here's a bunch of folk throwing in mid air, sometimes with impressive power -


I'm definitely not saying the brace isn't important, by the way - just that it need not be equal and opposite. Different people get more or less of their power from different places.

For example, i too (like sewer bill) throw 350 standstills. But i don't get anywhere near 500 with a run up. My brace needs work. I'm nearly all levers, some other people are nearly all momentum.

Only the very best throwers get pretty much all the juice out of pretty much all the different parts of the throw. And the amount of juice available from different aspects will vary based on body shape, strength, flexibility etc.

On the original question - i think Blake is saying that it's possible in theory to separate bits of the throw out and work out what they contribute on their own. The numbers would vary enormously from person to person, and only partly because of differences in how 'well' they do each movement. At least as much is dependent on body shape etc. But i can see the prima facie logic of what he's saying.

But even looking at just one person's throw, i don't think it's as simple as adding up all the maximum contributions from different aspects. If my chest was held completely stationary, no rotation at all, my max throw would obviously be all arm muscle. Stiff, tense, and effortful, at least for part of it, since there's nowhere else to get power from. But that is not the same arm motion that would maximise speed when i did have a coil, and a brace etc etc. I'd most likely want to be looser at the start of the arm motion, using the existing momentum and whipping rather than tensing everything up.

Phew, this got long. Sorry, I'm just thinking things through while i write. But that last bit is the important idea i think. Just because i can throw 275 with all arm does not mean that my arm contributes exactly 275 to my full throw. It's more holistic than that. The role of the arm (or anything else) is different when it's the initial source of power than when it is later in the chain.

Which i suppose is why it's often harder to coach someone who has already maximised and ingrained one part of the throw, but has neglected something else. You can't just bolt on a new bit to what already exists.
 
I don't think this is entirely true.

There are components other than the brace (and i say this as a strong believer in the value of using a good brace to help transfer your body momentum into the disc). If you were floating free in the vacuum of space, could you propel a disc away from you? Of course you could. Your muscles can still apply force without being braced against anything external.

You'd move backwards (like a rifle recoil) as the disc moved forwards, of course, but relatively slowly since your mass is ~400 times that of the disc. I don't think it unlikely that you could get the disc up to 30mph just by coiling and uncoiling against your inertia (though obviously that's just a guess). Here's a bunch of folk throwing in mid air, sometimes with impressive power -


I'm definitely not saying the brace isn't important, by the way - just that it need not be equal and opposite. Different people get more or less of their power from different places.

For example, i too (like sewer bill) throw 350 standstills. But i don't get anywhere near 500 with a run up. My brace needs work. I'm nearly all levers, some other people are nearly all momentum.

I possibly made a bit to strong of a statemen with my words, but the overall principle is what I'd push as my argument. Throwing in the air, sure. yes. we can do a lot of things, its also really high impact on our bodies when we don't give it something to push against. Kinda like throwing a really really hard punch like you were hitting someone, but nobody is there, no punching bag, and you tried to jerk the punch back after full extension.
The stability and the base is what allows us to really jam on it. This is why techniques that are "spin" related are not as powerful. They work, but they eventually can only generate so much energy. We can only spin so fast. But we can use physics to generate tons of power with opposing forces.

I also annoyingly can throw long standstills. I like it when everyone at league wants to do the standstill drive competition. hehehe And I don't throw 500 either.

That's a whole different discussion though maybe?

Which i suppose is why it's often harder to coach someone who has already maximised and ingrained one part of the throw, but has neglected something else. You can't just bolt on a new bit to what already exists.

Anyone who thinks they "got it" are almost impossible to coach.
This usually plays 2 ways. They either have no ability to listen, especially if they throw further than you already with their terrible form.

Or they have something engrained so hard like you're saying that any level of coaching breaks their swing on a level they cannot accept. Because that thing they neglected is perhaps causing them lets say some aim control problems. They can throw 500 feet, but cant' control it.
Then you fix up their foot work and now they can only throw 300 feet. They might put it right where they want it now, but they can no longer throw 500 because you fixed the really bad part and it fixed a ton of other things that .. yeah, i hope that makes sense.

Phew, this got long. Sorry, I'm just thinking things through while i write.

Thats like litterally all I do, which is why i type to much sometimes. I just sit here and think and let my fingers type it.
100+wpm helps.
Well. I'm older now, i'm probably down to 80.
 
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