Short-arm Apex Pitch Putting

[uNicedmeMan1]

I think I'm gonna try and play the Codorus fall open next weekend (9/10). I'm totally down for a round sometime, I'm sure there is alot you could show me. I'm really working on getting in shape right now and would like to play many tourneys next year.

I'll be there. I'm headed up there tomorrow for a practice round. I'm not going to get into your head before a tournament, so we'll go over it afterwards.

Cool man I'll see you there. Hell, I might even see you up there tomorrow depending on how much I get done around the house.

 

[ferretdance03]

Yo, make sure you find me before this putting clinic goes down, Greg! I could use all the help I can get...

 

[uNicedmeMan1]

Yo, make sure you find me before this putting clinic goes down, Greg! I could use all the help I can get...

Word. I'm gonna have to clear my head and just try and put the disc in the basket for the tourney. Are you gonna be there? Want me to bring any plastics?

 

[EKG]

There is nothing like two solid months of putting technique refinement. I'm glad I have another two months before real tournaments start to refine it even further but I finally have this down and I finally understand what Blake is describing in his article and this thread.

I had a hard time trying to figure out how to power a low ceiling putt without this technique breaking down. My problem (and I'm not sure where it came from) was I wasn't using my wrist as much as I should. I'm guessing I interpreted the article as saying this technique requires moving very few parts in order for it to be consistently good. I would get a decent putt out but I was trying to do this with too much tension in the wrist. I always wanted to lock it at a certain point in the toss. The wrist needs to feel relaxed and sort of floppy.

The combination of the back to front weight shift, short pitch, wrist extension, and finger spring produces more than enough power for a 40 to 50 foot low ceiling laser beam of a putt. The timing is REALLY tough to master and nose angle is really important on a shot like that. The timing of the firing out of the wrist is what this is all about. It determines everything the shot will do. I feel like the rest of the technique (weight shift & pitch) just kind of helps or aids you in repeating the timing as consistently as possible. From 25' and in I feel like I'm not even shifting my weight, it's mostly just the wrist doing the work. It's like throwing a mini uppercut into some ones belly and instead of a closed fist, it's a backhand bitch slap. If my arm represents the 90 degree line a right angle, my wrist probably waggles from about 150-160 degrees going back, to about 60-75 degrees after the follow through.

I understand why Blake would teach people this technique without the follow through from short distances, but it's tough to power this shot properly without the follow through. I also think it's difficult to really master the timing without the follow through. If you're cutting off what your body wants to do naturally, it's always going feel awkward. Eventually you have to make this stroke/technique unique to you and the follow through is about the only part of this that should be unique to you.

Blake says it's all about the release. I say the release is all about the wrist.

Blake many thanks for writing all of these articles in general. Conceptualizing these techniques in word form is close to impossible. Your principles are sound and it takes a lot of patience and hard work from a player to get really good at it.

 

[Blake_T1]

I understand why Blake would teach people this technique without the follow through from short distances, but it's tough to power this shot properly without the follow through. I also think it's difficult to really master the timing without the follow through. If you're cutting off what your body wants to do naturally, it's always going feel awkward. Eventually you have to make this stroke/technique unique to you and the follow through is about the only part of this that should be unique to you.

the no follow through thing was designed in order to reduce/eliminate misses that involve pulling the putt to the right. this is probably the most common miss (other than low).

what it shows is that there has to be a definite separation between ejection force and continuity of the follow through. too many people just move their arm and let the disc go somewhere near the end of the motion and their arm just continues through. with these types of players, you'll notice that their release point is inconsistent and they'll miss left or right depending upon when they release. preventing the follow through loads the wrist/hand into a very precise shove that is closer to shuffle board than anything else.

i agree that no follow through does have a power limiting effect, but focusing on putts from the circle and in, i've found it yields higher consistency.

Blake says it's all about the release. I say the release is all about the wrist.

yes, allowing the wrist to extend and popping the disc off the palm and fingers. i consider all of those factors to be the release.

Blake many thanks for writing all of these articles in general. Conceptualizing these techniques in word form is close to impossible. Your principles are sound and it takes a lot of patience and hard work from a player to get really good at it.

thanks. it's tough to turn words into action. it requires lots of trial & error. however, would you say that by formulating your own take on this that you were able to understand what you are doing and the roots of it?

teaching someone imitation skips parts of the learning curve that are important later on. knowing how to troubleshoot your own putt when it starts to fail is paramount. building your own take on the same fundamentals is essential for understanding what is going on, what HAS to happen, and what should not happen. you learn more by failing at first and finding a way to succeed than to succeed out of the gate.

 

[masterbeato]

i will vouch for that 100%. people say putting is a quick stroke, i say it is a short-quick stroke. following through does not matter if you taught yourself to release close to your body instead of the end of the follow through.

 

[tigel]

i will vouch for that 100%. people say putting is a quick stroke, i say it is a short-quick stroke. following through does not matter if you taught yourself to release close to your body instead of the end of the follow through.

Today I was focusing a lot on releasing closer to my body. It was working out pretty well. So this is true

 

[Blake_T1]

the breakthrough of short arming happened during the worst rated round of my career back when i was still fairly newbish in early 2002. i was in the midst of playing tournaments while trying to figure out this whole bent elbow thing and i kept trying to get it to work rather than revert back to my tried & true 350' reachback throw. end result = crappy d and no accuracy.

i was in my throwing motion running a 50' putt when i realized there was a steep dropoff 2' behind the basket. i quickly tried to stop my arm (which i did successfully) but i didn't tighten my grip. the putt ended up leaving with MORE power than usual and i drilled it dead center. everything putting-wise came together in that moment (it had been sporadic before and i finally knew why). i made 6 more putts that round from 50'+... sadly, they were all for bogey save or worse.

i learned that day that putting for dough is only applicable if your driving doesn't wreak turd.

 

[Rickg1]

putting for dough is only applicable if your driving doesn't wreak turd.

Quote of the decade! :lol:

 

[EKG]

what it shows is that there has to be a definite separation between ejection force and continuity of the follow through. too many people just move their arm and let the disc go somewhere near the end of the motion and their arm just continues through. with these types of players, you'll notice that their release point is inconsistent and they'll miss left or right depending upon when they release. preventing the follow through loads the wrist/hand into a very precise shove that is closer to shuffle board than anything else.

i agree that no follow through does have a power limiting effect, but focusing on putts from the circle and in, i've found it yields higher consistency.

Inside the circle, I absolutely agree with this. My stroke is a lot more rigid (for lack of a better term) inside of the circle. To be honest, I've never really had a big problem putting inside of the circle. I practice that range in my basement frequently. My problem was putts from about 40'+. I had no confidence that I could make putts of that length. Add tournament nerves into the equation and it was that much worse.

Outside of the circle is a different animal. I suppose I have a problem with the word "limiting". Blake, you're a beast. My range for this type of putt is about 75-80 feet max whereas yours is closer to 100-120 feet. It's also the winter so all of my ranges are a little shorter than usual. So I might be able to squeeze it out to 100 in the spring/summer. My make range is less than 10% from there but I have enough power behind the shot to get it there. I wanted to get out of the mindset of just accepting that it was going to take me two shots to hole out from 50-80 feet.

I watch guys like Climo, Schultz, Brinster, Locastro, and I see very pronounced follow through in their wrists. Follow through with the arm would lead to all kinds of problems. The arm should make the uppercut/jab motion and nothing else. They don't make 50+ footers with uncanny consistency but they're always very close. I've been told on many occasions that I putt like Schultz which is a good thing considering I've tried to model my stroke off of his.

yes, allowing the wrist to extend and popping the disc off the palm and fingers. i consider all of those factors to be the release.

Agreed, I just don't think about the popping part anymore. It just kind of happens. I'm more focused on wrist action and the timing of the release than anything else. It seems to me like 60 to 70 percent of this shots power is generated from the wrist.

thanks. it's tough to turn words into action. it requires lots of trial & error. however, would you say that by formulating your own take on this that you were able to understand what you are doing and the roots of it?

Yes, absolutely. I can figure out where my driving technique breaks down and correct it within the next shot. I couldn't always say that with my putting stroke. My misses before I figured this out were all short/top of the cage or left which was a result of not enough wrist action. My misses now clank off the top of the umbrella or miss left because I didn't release the disc flat. I prefer the ladder over the former.

I agree with the no imitation thing to learn a more fundamentally sound technique. However, I do think video of how the disc behaves on a putt from 50 or 60 feet would help people understand what the end result should look like. I also think video from underneath the disc would help people understand the spring and ejection. I've actually had someone record me throwing a 40ish footer from underneath the disc and you can absolutely see the finger spring and ejection. You have to use a 120 fps digi-camcorder. A 25 footer using this technique should have very little dropping disc action so there isn't much to see. A 50 footer on the other hand really shows what this type of putt is capable of.

 

[Blake_T1]

Inside the circle, I absolutely agree with this. My stroke is a lot more rigid (for lack of a better term) inside of the circle. To be honest, I've never really had a big problem putting inside of the circle. I practice that range in my basement frequently. My problem was putts from about 40'+. I had no confidence that I could make putts of that length. Add tournament nerves into the equation and it was that much worse.

Outside of the circle is a different animal. I suppose I have a problem with the word "limiting". Blake, you're a beast. My range for this type of putt is about 75-80 feet max whereas yours is closer to 100-120 feet. It's also the winter so all of my ranges are a little shorter than usual. So I might be able to squeeze it out to 100 in the spring/summer. My make range is less than 10% from there but I have enough power behind the shot to get it there. I wanted to get out of the mindset of just accepting that it was going to take me two shots to hole out from 50-80 feet.

at some point in time during the 18 months i was injured my long putt went buh bye. it was a bit of a trade-off. i lost my 60' line drive but became more accurate inside the circle. i can still hit metal 3 out of 5 from 45', but i think my mentality has changed quite a bit over the years.

i rarely ever expect to make anything over 40' (except some days where i'm really feelin it). i make quite a few of those, but it's not something i ever plan on, predict, would bet money on, etc. the reputation i have developed with some players about my putting is based upon my putting from 35' and in, being able to read/adjust for wind, and rarely missing putts i should make.

in terms of max range, the longest range i think i can hit metal 1 out of 5 is in the 60-70' range. i can safely lay up consistently with a jump putt from out to around 100'. nowadays i do a lot more throw-in attempts from 80-120' rather than jump putting.

here's the other thing that i find to be equally if not more important than developing insane range... can you adjust your putting stroke to fit the conditions/shot?

e.g. can you perform a nate doss or ron russell style anhyzer putt and still make a good % of them? can you loft a high apex putt over an obstacle and buzz chains every time? can you putt well up and down hill? can you straddle putt (or staggered putt) nearly as well as your normal style? can you putt from 1-2 knee(s)? how many bail-out putting styles can you make a fair % of (e.g. turbo putt, push putt, bi-moto, end-over-end, ud/tommy, etc.)?

another thing people often neglect is perfecting orientation control. i get bored with practice putting rather easily and my practice sessions degenerate pretty quickly into f'ing around with trick putts or weird drills that develop other putting skills.

masterbeato and a few others have seen my "flip dick" putt, which started out kind of as a joke but now i actually use it as a drill for people to manipulate putter flight behavior. it's a jump straddle that starts with the disc in front of your junk and you pull almost straight upwards and stop at your belt. the goal is to get an 18-30' apex that has no fade on its way down and have a shot at going in (if you do it really well most will hit the top). to make it more challenging, you can perform it with your most overstable discs (e.g. firebirds, preds, xcals, etc.) and see if you can do it. if you can do this you can hit any lower apex with the orientation you want no problem.


overall, i think people's views of pro putting from long range is a bit on the exaggerated side. there are those who start making longer putts during important rounds/holes or if they get hot, but as a whole, there is a significant drop off in accuracy between 32.5' and 35'. i think being able to give it a good, honest run that has a shot at going in from 60' is really important. i also think that most players won't make a single 60' putt in an average round.

Agreed, I just don't think about the popping part anymore. It just kind of happens. I'm more focused on wrist action and the timing of the release than anything else. It seems to me like 60 to 70 percent of this shots power is generated from the wrist.

the power is generated by the wrist but transferred by the palm push. to see how important the palm push is try releasing with your hand oriented at like 2 o'clock and see how much power you get from the wrist (there's hardly any). these throws are dominated by finger spring if you are going to generate power with that kind of release point. the reason to sink any practice into this is that it will help you with uphill putts.

 

[EKG]

in terms of max range, the longest range i think i can hit metal 1 out of 5 is in the 60-70' range. i can safely lay up consistently with a jump putt from out to around 100'. nowadays i do a lot more throw-in attempts from 80-120' rather than jump putting.

here's the other thing that i find to be equally if not more important than developing insane range... can you adjust your putting stroke to fit the conditions/shot?

e.g. can you perform a nate doss or ron russell style anhyzer putt and still make a good % of them? can you loft a high apex putt over an obstacle and buzz chains every time? can you putt well up and down hill? can you straddle putt (or staggered putt) nearly as well as your normal style? can you putt from 1-2 knee(s)? how many bail-out putting styles can you make a fair % of (e.g. turbo putt, push putt, bi-moto, end-over-end, ud/tommy, etc.)?

I now feel like I have about a 50/50 chance of a 40+ footer going in and about a 25% chance of a 50 to 60 footer going in. From 70ish feet and out I'm like you and I try more throw ins. I was really focused on extending the range of this putt and to do that you have the master the timing. The reason I did that was to make 40+ footers realistically makable and everything inside the circle seem like a lay up.

I have to do a little bit of Doss/Russell on longer putts. I'll release the disc with maybe 5 deg of anny but it will never move left or right. The disc will flatten out but not move left or right. That was when I started to believe I was getting this down. I'm thinking if I had too much spin, the disc would turn, but because there is no turn it has the appropriate amount of spin.

another thing people often neglect is perfecting orientation control. i get bored with practice putting rather easily and my practice sessions degenerate pretty quickly into f'ing around with trick putts or weird drills that develop other putting skills.

I'm one of those weird people who can have fun putting for hours. I play a lot of horse with friends as well. But this is exactly what I meant by more refinement. Navigating this type of putt around and through obstacles takes a completely different approach than spin putting. Its similar in the sense that you're releasing the disc at different angles and nose orientations but with this putt you have to take the disc drop into consideration. Thats not something you deal with on spin putts and I need to work on that. I can go over top of obstacles, I can stall hyzer for left turns but I still have trouble with annys. I get the flight I want, but its not accurate enough yet. I have a good understanding what wind from all directions will do to a putter and I'm pretty good at compensating for it. Its moreso refinement at this point.

masterbeato and a few others have seen my "flip dick" putt, which started out kind of as a joke but now i actually use it as a drill for people to manipulate putter flight behavior. it's a jump straddle that starts with the disc in front of your junk and you pull almost straight upwards and stop at your belt. the goal is to get an 18-30' apex that has no fade on its way down and have a shot at going in (if you do it really well most will hit the top). to make it more challenging, you can perform it with your most overstable discs (e.g. firebirds, preds, xcals, etc.) and see if you can do it. if you can do this you can hit any lower apex with the orientation you want no problem.

I've seen this before. I've never seen anyone else do it but Craig Gangloff is a master at it. It definitely requires a lot of skill and is an excellent straddle drill.

 

[josser]

Double post. For the folks that aren't subscribed to the thread for Dan's putting video.

I feel like I have somewhat of a feel for this technique out to about 20', but after that it starts to break down and I start really flinging it at the basket. By that I mean I start to fling it much more than finger finger spring it.

Would anybody who feels like they have a decent handle on Blake's short-arm technique in the 20-30' range like to post a video of what it looks like in those ranges? That would be most appreciated.

 

[Blake_T1]

20' is about the max range you can perform with just the wrist/fingers.

beyond that you have to start incorporating weight shift and this is where the idea behind apex putting becomes relevant.

with an apex putt you don't have to throw the full length of the putt. e.g. on a 25' putt you pitch it to the apex it at ~16-18' and the putter just coasts its way to the basket from the apex.

 

[bcsst26]

One thing that helps me on longer putts is not to try to get the putter to the apex but through the apex.

 

[josser]

20' is about the max range you can perform with just the wrist/fingers.

beyond that you have to start incorporating weight shift and this is where the idea behind apex putting becomes relevant.

with an apex putt you don't have to throw the full length of the putt. e.g. on a 25' putt you pitch it to the apex it at ~16-18' and the putter just coasts its way to the basket from the apex.

Once I get to the distances where I am trying to apex putt, I end up having to play the fade as well, even when thrown flat. But as you say, one should be able to putt using this style out to 30' with no fade. The fade starts showing up when I start feeling like I am flinging the disc. One thing that feels like it contributes to this is the index finger lock under the rim. When I start trying to put a bit more oomph on the disc, it turns into a fling where I use the locked index finger as a point about which I am rotating the disc. Sounds like terrible finger spring to me.


I have a revised request. My request is for a video showing short-arm apex pitch putting at distances from 15'-30' showing the transition into needing to use the apex. I'm looking for reference points so that when I take video of myself going through these distances, I have reference points.

Any takers?

 

[Blake_T1]

Once I get to the distances where I am trying to apex putt, I end up having to play the fade as well, even when thrown flat. But as you say, one should be able to putt using this style out to 30' with no fade. The fade starts showing up when I start feeling like I am flinging the disc. One thing that feels like it contributes to this is the index finger lock under the rim. When I start trying to put a bit more oomph on the disc, it turns into a fling where I use the locked index finger as a point about which I am rotating the disc. Sounds like terrible finger spring to me.

fade shows up when the putter is nose up. i'm not sure what you are thinking in terms of loft, but the apex on putts inside the circle is less than 1' above the top of the basket.

if your index finger locks then you aren't getting finger spring. the idea is to open the hand.

 

[josser]

fade shows up when the putter is nose up. i'm not sure what you are thinking in terms of loft, but the apex on putts inside the circle is less than 1' above the top of the basket.

For putts closer to 30' I get noticeable fade with flat shots, due to too much spin I think. With my attempts at this putting style (currently the ugly love child of short-arm pitch and spin) I am usually flat or nose-down and have much more of a tendency to be nose down and the disc clangs off the bottom of the pole. But I will make sure to pay very close attention to the nose angle when I notice that I am dealing with fade.

if your index finger locks then you aren't getting finger spring. the idea is to open the hand.

I'm quite certain that my finger spring is lacking.

In Dan's video he discussed making sure to hook the index finger under, but I remember seeing some pictures somewhere of people having the pad of their index finger on the bottom of the plate and using their thumb to pinch into that from the other side, instead of using the hooked index. What are the pros and cons of this? I have tried it out and feel that I can get better finger spring, but it is less consistent due to the lack of anything other than the pinky right on the rim.

 

[Blake_T1]

the more fingers you have in contact with the rim wall, the greater the potential "pop" you can get on the putt.

For putts closer to 30' I get noticeable fade with flat shots, due to too much spin I think. With my attempts at this putting style (currently the ugly love child of short-arm pitch and spin) I am usually flat or nose-down and have much more of a tendency to be nose down and the disc clangs off the bottom of the pole. But I will make sure to pay very close attention to the nose angle when I notice that I am dealing with fade.

i don't think it's due to too much spin.

you can even putt with like 1 degree of nose down and learn to gauge drop rates, but that won't work into the wind.