Simon Lizotte does a Form Critique

[billyjacko]

This is so much more effective than a clinic. I hope we see more pros do this. There's not a ton of information in here people on this forum doesn't already know, but it's still cool to see.

 

[JuanA]

That was great. The side by side/frame by frame view makes it much easier to see what's going on. This went right into my DG Playlist.

 

[Countchunkula]

Thanks for posting it here.

 

[BeRReGoN]

I like how he's bending his wrist up until completing his reach back, in his forward motion it doesn't bend back like at the beginning. I tried it and I think it helps keeping the right shoulder and elbow angle and to rotate my upper body completely instead of stretching.

I'm sure it's not necessary to do it but it might helps some to try it. Also in the video he says he doesn't like moving the disc in front but there is pros doing it with consistency probably because it helps their timing. Philo Brathwaite, Dave Felberg does it, even Paul Mcbeth kind of do it but less obvious. On the other hand, Seppo Paju also curl his wrist a lot too.

 

[Grippenripp]

This is cool. I'd like to see more of this. Mcbeth, Doss, Uli, Sexton and many more could offer a unique perspective. Also would be kinda cool to see some FPO players helping the ladies as well.

 

[JuanA]

...I hope we see more pros do this.

I'd really like to see some of the Technique & Strategy regulars try this out with a willing subject.

 

[slowplastic]

I'd really like to see some of the Technique & Strategy regulars try this out with a willing subject.

That's what the whole form subsection is about? But it's typically in text/picture format.

 

[JuanA]

That's what the whole form subsection is about? But it's typically in text/picture format.

Exactly. I'd like to see some of the stuff you guys discuss shown in a side by side video with a volunteer thrower. Sometimes the topics discussed are hard to visualize.

You, SW22, HUB and others have great info, but sometimes it's hard to wrap my head around a text description.

 

[mizunodave]

You, SW22, HUB and others have great info, but sometimes it's hard to wrap my head around a text description.

There's an awful lot of jargon used that I think must make sense if you already know how to do the thing being described but is really difficult to unpack if you can't do it yet.

Rounding, arc, hit point, power pocket, snap, closed shoulder, plant, brace, heel pivot, wide rail, swim move, etc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Exactly. I'd like to see some of the stuff you guys discuss shown in a side by side video with a volunteer thrower. Sometimes the topics discussed are hard to visualize.

You, SW22, HUB and others have great info, but sometimes it's hard to wrap my head around a text description.

There's an awful lot of jargon used that I think must make sense if you already know how to do the thing being described but is really difficult to unpack if you can't do it yet.

Rounding, arc, hit point, power pocket, snap, closed shoulder, plant, brace, heel pivot, wide rail, swim move, etc.

I try to explain terms and demonstrate what not to do, and how to do things in most of my vids which is why they end up so long, even though I try to make them shorter. There is a lot of info my vids and don't expect anyone to remember it all watching it one time. It's like learning all other things, you have to be a student of the game and go over the material a number of times before you really understand it. I probably watched Shawn Clement and Mike Maves videos about 100 times before I really understood them.

I also think a lot of people don't actually do any of the drills and/or do them wrong which doesn't help. Most other sports have live coaches watching players doing drills and correcting them. Disc golf is a rare breed of sport instruction that is mostly online. It's rare I actually get to see anyone record themselves doing drills, and when I do it's often clear the errors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

 

[JuanA]

I also think a lot of people don't actually do any of the drills and/or do them wrong which doesn't help.

True. I keep the ones that have helped me in a YouTube playlist, and watch/practice them about once a month as a refresher.

They really do help if you practice them.

 

[GoobyPls]

I also think a lot of people don't actually do any of the drills and/or do them wrong which doesn't help. Most other sports have live coaches watching players doing drills and correcting them. Disc golf is a rare breed of sport instruction that is mostly online. It's rare I actually get to see anyone record themselves doing drills, and when I do it's often clear the errors.

Maybe that's the problem. I actually do practice the drills and am getting pretty much nothing from them. Before I posted yesterday I did both the One-Leg Drill and threw a heavy hammer right before field practice. Apparently they didn't help.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Maybe that's the problem. I actually do practice the drills and am getting pretty much nothing from them. Before I posted yesterday I did both the One-Leg Drill and threw a heavy hammer right before field practice. Apparently they didn't help.

I think we can put a more fine a point on this: you have to do the drills correctly. I use drills when coaching, and I spend a substantial amount of time pushing, pulling, and directing - just to get the drill done correctly. We try to come up with simple drills, but sometimes that isn't so easy to do.

If you want an example, wade into Ranger's "Rearranging deck chairs..." thread in Form/Analysis. They've been working for a long time for him to understand how to swing a hammer correctly.

I think that players who want to develop world class power/form have to take complete ownership of their form rebuild. What does that mean? You've got to study the gold-standards and A-B them against your form, frame by frame, from multiple directions (side and behind). This should be done by the player, not the Sidewinders and SlowPlastics of the world. It should be done each time you do field work. It's the means by which you're verifying that you're getting closer to your goal.

Find a coach who can work with you in person.

If you think you are doing something right, fundamentally right, be open to debate and be willing to investigate other ideas. That's the difference between being a charlatan and a "form scientist".

I'm not calling anybody a charlatan, I'm saying that if you're not willing to withstand the rigor of debate and questioning - then there's going to be people who are distrustful of demands of respect.

Please know, I'm not directing this toward anybody in particular (and certainly not the person I quoted) or Simon. It's just something I've been thinking about, as a personal short coming, in that I will often think that I've locked into something absolute - but then I fail to take the next steps to attempt to disprove my own theory and/or investigate competing theories.

 

[GoobyPls]

I think we can put a more fine a point on this: you have to do the drills correctly. I use drills when coaching, and I spend a substantial amount of time pushing, pulling, and directing - just to get the drill done correctly. We try to come up with simple drills, but sometimes that isn't so easy to do.

If you want an example, wade into Ranger's "Rearranging deck chairs..." thread in Form/Analysis. They've been working for a long time for him to understand how to swing a hammer correctly.

I think that players who want to develop world class power/form have to take complete ownership of their form rebuild. What does that mean? You've got to study the gold-standards and A-B them against your form, frame by frame, from multiple directions (side and behind). This should be done by the player, not the Sidewinders and SlowPlastics of the world. It should be done each time you do field work. It's the means by which you're verifying that you're getting closer to your goal.

Find a coach who can work with you in person.

If you think you are doing something right, fundamentally right, be open to debate and be willing to investigate other ideas. That's the difference between being a charlatan and a "form scientist".

I'm not calling anybody a charlatan, I'm saying that if you're not willing to withstand the rigor of debate and questioning - then there's going to be people who are distrustful of demands of respect.

Please know, I'm not directing this toward anybody in particular (and certainly not the person I quoted) or Simon. It's just something I've been thinking about, as a personal short coming, in that I will often think that I've locked into something absolute - but then I fail to take the next steps to attempt to disprove my own theory and/or investigate competing theories.

Yeah, but I think that's one of the fundamental limits of such a niche sport. It's pretty easy to find a tennis coach or somebody to give you a swing lesson in golf. But it's a lot harder to find somebody who A) has a good understanding of disc golf technique, B) can teach (which is a different skillset), and C) is local. SW22's right about most of the good instruction being online.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Yeah, but I think that's one of the fundamental limits of such a niche sport. It's pretty easy to find a tennis coach or somebody to give you a swing lesson in golf. But it's a lot harder to find somebody who A) has a good understanding of disc golf technique, B) can teach (which is a different skillset), and C) is local. SW22's right about most of the good instruction being online.

I think even more reason to try and learn as much as possible from EVERYONE else's form threads on this forum. Really learning what is being noticed and said to everyone else and trying to anticipate fixes SW will be telling someone.

So often the locals who are willing to "coach" might be really good throwers but don't have a complete grasp of what they are doing so are coaching wrong... OR they just don't have the right temperament to pass along information they may actually understand. The more i've learned from here the more I would LIKE to help others but I know my limits of understanding as well.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think we can put a more fine a point on this: you have to do the drills correctly. I use drills when coaching, and I spend a substantial amount of time pushing, pulling, and directing - just to get the drill done correctly. We try to come up with simple drills, but sometimes that isn't so easy to do.

Much more effective pointing out some of the nuances in person like that.

 

[DiscFifty]

Simon starts off by saying he's not a teacher. Then proceeds to produce one of the best disc golf critiques ever, and not even in his home language. Dude is the real deal.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Also in the video he says he doesn't like moving the disc in front but there is pros doing it with consistency probably because it helps their timing. Philo Brathwaite, Dave Felberg does it, even Paul Mcbeth kind of do it but less obvious. On the other hand, Seppo Paju also curl his wrist a lot too.

The important piece of advice is to move your body around the disc. That's easier to force yourself to do with a static disc.

 

[deyo7]

The important piece of advice is to move your body around the disc. That's easier to force yourself to do with a static disc.

I'm going to kindly push back a little on this. I think forward pump and pendulum is much easier form for amateurs, allowing one to abandon arm to gravity and enabling one to feel weight of disc better than static disc with still arms. You can still, at least somewhat, work body around disc.

 

[deyo7]

Much more effective pointing out some of the nuances in person like that.

Where's your ranch, Sidewinder?! I'm coming out to visit! Hah