Starting a lawnmower vs late power

[Rossosaurus]

So I feel like I've heard multiple times that throwing a disc is similar to starting a lawnmower but I've also heard that you shouldn't be pulling/using your arm to muscle through the throw and that all the speed/power comes after you're in the hit pocket. I feel like these two pieces of advice are contradictory. Is the lawnmower thing not really good advice and should be avoided?

 

[Lastchancer88]

So I feel like I've heard multiple times that throwing a disc is similar to starting a lawnmower but I've also heard that you shouldn't be pulling/using your arm to muscle through the throw and that all the speed/power comes after you're in the hit pocket. I feel like these two pieces of advice are contradictory. Is the lawnmower thing not really good advice and should be avoided?

It could be argued it depends on how you start a lawnmower. If you grab the string and pull with your arm only, it's not gonna help you with disc golf. If you're like Sidewinder's video of the kid starting a lawnmower and you get your whole body into it and braced against the force, maybe it's a good analogy.

There's not really one simple phrase that encompasses all the movements of a disc golf throw, but it's been compared for rhbh to a left handed hockey shot, tennis swing, hammer throw, slashing through brush with a blade and on and on…

I've found a lot of advice contradictory in my 2 years of research on this weird movement. It all comes from a good place but some are trying to get views/money and some are seeing things when pausing a video that aren't how the body moves.

All this to really say, for me, it's not like starting a lawnmower because I have a tendency to overuse arm muscles instead of my whole body as a system. I really like this video from Rauli on youtube, where he says "pulling is pulling and throwing is throwing.". I think the focus starts on the right arm (or left) to get the basics of a throw but then the rest of the body is gonna need to be incorporated to throw more easily and much much further.

 

[sidewinder22]

The analogy obviously works for some people including myself. Some people I think just don't know how to start the mower and only use their arm.

Use your whole body to start it and then break the string. Note how the little girl takes a step into it using her whole body and pushes/leverages/swims against the lawnmower with the off arm.

 

[sidewinder22]

Can also see the similarity here.

 

[Brychanus]

Two cents since I too think a lot about well-intentioned advice/catchphrases. Your & SW22's post just made something click for me & why it might be more or less easy for some people.

It helps me to think about starting a cranky/stiff lawnmower, where at a certain point even people w/ very strong upper bodies will need to get weight & hips into the motion. But if it's a clean, smooth, "light" lawnmower mechanism, you can definitely muscle your way through it if you want to (I should note still with some risk to your body), and that might be where people get stuck. Our training & habit histories give us strong tendencies when we move.

I think that's been part of my own problem learning DG BH - I used to spend a lot of time training mostly upper body movements & strength for other activities, and have a strong propensity to try to muscle through with upper body/arm motions. Like, almost everything, from opening a fridge to restraining my 75 lb dog when she gets too excited. I would definitely start trying to pull a lawnmower by loading my lats with stiff hips, just like doing a barbell row. These tendencies are still clearly there as SW22 is patiently trying to get my body to do the correct motions.

Now that I simply can't make progress otherwise & I've finally started to feel a better Weight Shift, the lawnmower analogy makes much more sense again. I have to get a really cranky, stiff lawnmower going, and I just can't do it without getting my butt/weight/lagged load to lead the pull, just like spinning a high-resistance revolving door. The reason it feels so foreign is because I was getting by without using it for my entire life!

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I've always though that starting a lawnmower, for an adult, is a terrible analogy because most of the time it will result of the recipient of the advise strong-arming their throws and it can be very difficult to get them to un-learn the poor technique. I know several people who learned using that analogy who have hit low distance ceilings and developed shoulder pain.

 

[ray1970]

I don't know if there's a better simple analogy that worked for me when I first started. While the lawnmower idea may not be ideal, if you are starting from ground zero it at least gives you some kind of guidance in the right direction. I know it really helped me when I was starting out.

 

[timothy42b]

I don't have a drone for an overhead view, but I had a brainstorm this morning, and put the phone flat on the floor underneath me. I wanted to see if I'm pulling, etc.

My upper arm angle stayed pretty much stable during the swing - I wasn't pulling like that Finnish video was warning. (should I post the Finnish video over on S&T? <smiley>)

But I also noticed I didn't come anywhere near the power pocket, and my elbow angle didn't release either. The upper arm to chest angle stayed fixed, but so did the upper arm to forearm until way past where I think the hit should be.

 

[BillFleming]

I've quit paying attention to my arm. I focus on my plant/pivot foot doing its thing and turning my body. My hips and shoulders turn with my pivot foot and the arm follows along. For me, that has improved my backhand immensely. If I focus on pulling my arm or any concentrated movement of the arm...my throw goes wrong.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

All of the analogies suck. Period. Until you know what it's supposed to look like.

The lawnmower doesn't give you a full pull through, someone says it's like starting a lawn mower and I think..

Ok so pull it three times like an old man first
Give it a hard snap up front so I don't break the cord
Curse a bit, pull really hard and angry 6 times
Etc.

Snapping a towel.. Ok so I just flick it with my wrist like my brother ran past me with a bare ass after a shower.

It's like clearing cans off a table.. So face the basket and sweep my arm flat like it's a beach frisbee. ??

Follow through but remember to brace.

The cans I never understood, the towel i didn't get until recently but apparently your arm is the towel and you snap it with your body. The lawnmower and Beato made sure I ended up with a killer straight tunnel BH but no distance and a sore shoulder now I learned that I need to use a pendulum motion and it's easier on my body haha.

Looking back with what I know now I kind of get what the intention was but I never understood it properly when I first heard it.

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

Curse a bit, pull really hard and angry 6 times

That's already my typical par 4 or 5..then there's tossing the damn thing back into the fairway (or through it) and the putting attempts...

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

That's already my typical par 4 or 5..then there's tossing the damn thing back into the fairway (or through it) and the putting attempts...

I know right? Haha I was shown the lawnmower thing with a flat arm and without the body, add some can clearing and it was a throw bound for disaster. My lawnmowers also all suck, it's like the extra boats in my yard....

 

[txmxer]

I can neither throw a lawn mower nor start a disc.

I guess I should give up.

 

[BillFleming]

The only lawnmower I ever used was electric, so the idea of starting one was - plug it in and switch it on....no clue how that translated to a disc golf throw.

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

The only lawnmower I ever used was electric, so the idea of starting one was - plug it in and switch it on....no clue how that translated to a disc golf throw.

Besides as good hippies environmentally responsible citizens we should be using either the pushreel mowers or the electric ones, not those carbon spewing abominations

 

[PMantle]

I've always though that starting a lawnmower, for an adult, is a terrible analogy because most of the time it will result of the recipient of the advise strong-arming their throws and it can be very difficult to get them to un-learn the poor technique. I know several people who learned using that analogy who have hit low distance ceilings and developed shoulder pain.

Nah, it's really good. Almost no one is strong enough to use just one's arm. There has to be upper body rotation.

 

[drk_evns]

The reason the kid is a good example is because her arm isn't strong enough to start that lawnmower alone. She's FORCED to use her lower body in an efficient fashion.

Same reason small kids will often naturally have good form.

 

[seedlings]

IMHO this is the most helpful video on how it feels to throw properly, and describes what is perceived as 'late power' by saying 'the disc should be the fastest moving piece of the puzzle'. This video is the single biggest breakthrough for me. I need more breakthroughs though.

 

[twistedraven]

The beginning part of this kid's video really shows the full effect of late acceleration equaling disc speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4wnbKYfPLs

 

[Brychanus]

The beginning part of this kid's video really shows the full effect of late acceleration equaling disc speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4wnbKYfPLs

When I was doing clinical work in neurological samples, we would frequently use a simple hand dynamometer to assess peak grip strength against normative data. You grab the thing and just squeeze as hard as you can. Attached is a table of grip strength means & standard deviations by age and gender.

It's not precisely the same since the grip is different b/w a dynamometer and a disc, but the dynamometer measure is of the transient maximum grip force put on the device. Most people can muster a few more lbs for a brief moment than they can sustain for a few seconds, just like transiently increasing grip tension as a disc enters the hit.

Assuming the peak weight for a high 60's mph ejection is somewhere around 59lbs like in this guy's analysis, you can look across the table and see where grip strength might be a limiting factor in pro-level form/acceleration. For many non-pros' form, grip strength might be less likely to be a limiter. Of course, you might also imagine that the force varies by ejection speed & form/body type (etc.) that influences acceleration curves, which would be interesting.

Of course, I only have this one guy's analysis, these are averages and variances in a randomly sampled population, and grip strength is trainable!