Stop asking if you are outside the circle!

[DumfriesLizzie]

LOL.......It is too punitive to take your shot from where it landed? I mean, you are now releasing the shot at your original lie.

All it sounds like you are saying is...in addition to providing you more power, leaping toward the basket from the original lie, can improve your lie?

Nope. You're missing it. See Cgkdisc's proposal for eliminating the circle altogether at posting #164.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Okay. I tried it this afternoon on a tight, wooded course. I think the 1-meter informal penalty is far too punitive for C2 and longer step/jump putts. In many instances, it totally changes the shot: different trees in the way, a different disc needed. Perhaps it is reasonable for near-C1 putts when there is no way to measure or no time to measure. I played two rounds today. Shall play another tomorrow hopefully and see if I still feel the same way. If so, I'm back in the "keep the circle" camp! Good evening.

Remember, choosing to step/jump is optional. If it doesn't make sense to go back 1 meter to do it, you just landed in a place where you have to putt/throw another way. That's true for any lie. There will be lies where being able to move back 1 meter provides the opportunity that didn't exist where you landed.

 

[ru4por]

Nope. You're missing it. See Cgkdisc's proposal for eliminating the circle altogether at posting #164.

Yes.....so your release of the disc, on some kind of leaping effort of a putt, is done at your lie, not feet in front of it. I am not missing anything. I am always happy to simply stand at my lie and deliver my putt. Chuck is proposing a solution to ensure fairness.

 

[ru4por]

Remember, choosing to step/jump is optional. If it doesn't make sense to go back 1 meter to do it, you just landed in a place where you have to putt/throw another way. That's true for any lie. There will be lies where being able to move back 1 meter provides the opportunity that didn't exist where you landed.

If you are moving back, you should still have to release the putt at the true lie. There should be no advantage to the lie itself. The perceived advantage should be in all the jumping, hopping, skipping and stepping around, up to the true lie.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

Remember, choosing to step/jump is optional. If it doesn't make sense to go back 1 meter to do it, you just landed in a place where you have to putt/throw another way. That's true for any lie. There will be lies where being able to move back 1 meter provides the opportunity that didn't exist where you landed.

It's a bit discombobulating.... I walked up to the previously-thrown disc, thinking step putt. I left that disc on the ground since I knew I was going to play from it after the 1-meter informal penalty experiment. So a meter back, I have a different thought because the step putt isn't going to be as useful anymore. It was good to try this and understand (for me) the disadvantage. I see it definitely reducing the number of step and jump putts. Which, I gather, is your desire. Correct?

 

[Cgkdisc]

It's a bit discombobulating.... I walked up to the previously-thrown disc, thinking step putt. I left that disc on the ground since I knew I was going to play from it after the 1-meter informal penalty experiment. So a meter back, I have a different thought because the step putt isn't going to be as useful anymore. It was good to try this and understand (for me) the disadvantage. I see it definitely reducing the number of step and jump putts. Which, I gather, is your desire. Correct?

I would expect step/jump putts to increase significantly since the 10m circle restriction also disappears. Players who previously didn't want to do it, thinking it was somehow unfair or illegal, will now try it and players who physically have needed to step or jump to generate enough power but couldn't do so inside 10m will be free to do it. I expect there will be many more jumpers than steppers since the step putting motion seems trickier.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

I would expect step/jump putts to increase significantly since the 10m circle restriction also disappears. Players who previously didn't want to do it, thinking it was somehow unfair or illegal, will now try it and players who physically have needed to step or jump to generate enough power but couldn't do so inside 10m will be free to do it. I expect there will be many more jumpers than steppers since the step putting motion seems trickier.

Open places maybe...I think less so in the woods. C2, C3 (if there's such a thing), etc putts, I'm talking about here.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Open places maybe...I think less so in the woods. C2, C3 (if there's such a thing), etc putts, I'm talking about here.

The advantage there is no need for trying to mark a circle. If the player wants to jump or step, they don't need to figure out where the circle is located, they just know they can move back a meter. Note that this proposal is as much about allowing jumps and steps inside the 10m circle where players can't do it now. It can be especially useful for uphill putts inside 10m.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

Cgkdisc, you can certainly propose it to the PDGA (if you haven't already) and see if makes it into the 2026 rule changes. There may be folks who like it. One thing it's not likely to do is save time. As the player has to decide which lie/throw combination is best. Of course, sometimes this will be readily obvious, but sometimes it won't. Yesterday (on the woods course) I just felt like this proposed option was biting off my nose to spite my face.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Cgkdisc, you can certainly propose it to the PDGA (if you haven't already) and see if makes it into the 2026 rule changes. There may be folks who like it. One thing it's not likely to do is save time. As the player has to decide which lie/throw combination is best. Of course, sometimes this will be readily obvious, but sometimes it won't. Yesterday (on the woods course) I just felt like this proposed option was biting off my nose to spite my face.

Perhaps the similar idea of requiring a player to complete their throw, however they want to throw it, behind their mark is just as good or at least simpler to implement, and it also eliminates the need for the 10m circle. The point being there are ways to move away from players having to watch and make timing calls, which we've seen for 40 years does not work well in a self-officiated sport.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

Perhaps the similar idea of requiring a player to complete their throw, however they want to throw it, behind their mark is just as good or at least simpler to implement, and it also eliminates the need for the 10m circle. The point being there are ways to move away from players having to watch and make timing calls, which we've seen for 40 years does not work well in a self-officiated sport.

I'm all for follow-throughs for movement that starts outside C1. The momentum on these strong throws (that use the body more than a regular putt does) will naturally carry one forward and over the lie. Trying to stay behind said results in jamming oneself up. Its like (when driving a vehicle at 50 mph) coming to a screeching halt behind stopped traffic. That (over the decades) we've come up with nothing better than marking and measuring C1 speaks volumes IMHO. It's alot easier to remain behind the lie and keep one's balance if there's alot less power in the throw.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm all for follow-throughs for movement that starts outside C1. The momentum on these strong throws (that use the body more than a regular putt does) will naturally carry one forward and over the lie. Trying to stay behind said results in jamming oneself up. Its like (when driving a vehicle at 50 mph) coming to a screeching halt behind stopped traffic. That (over the decades) we've come up with nothing better than marking and measuring C1 speaks volumes IMHO. It's alot easier to remain behind the lie and keep one's balance if there's alot less power in the throw.

Your response shows exactly why C1 is discriminatory against those who need the momentum follow through inside 10m. If the goal is to eliminate the need for timing calls and the discriminatory 10m circle, as it should be, I've provided two ways to do it. If there's another way, that's fine, too. It needs to be done to improve the sport.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

Your response shows exactly why C1 is discriminatory against those who need the momentum follow through inside 10m. If the goal is to eliminate the need for timing calls and the discriminatory 10m circle, as it should be, I've provided two ways to do it. If there's another way, that's fine, too. It needs to be done to improve the sport.

The only way yesterday for me not to wind up on top of the previously-thrown disc was to go even further back than 1 meter. Tall person here. You've thrown a good approach, beating the trees you needed to beat. A step-putt layup would put your disc under the basket for the final shot to be a tap-in. You're already 60 feet away from the basket. Going back 2 meters (say) to ensure you stay behind the original lie is distinctly unappealing. You're unraveling the success of the previous throw.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The only way yesterday for me not to wind up on top of the previously-thrown disc was to go even further back than 1 meter. Tall person here. You've thrown a good approach, beating the trees you needed to beat. A step-putt layup would put your disc under the basket for the final shot to be a tap-in. You're already 60 feet away from the basket. Going back 2 meters (say) to ensure you stay behind the lie is distinctly unappealing. You're unraveling the success of the previous throw.

Ah, you misunderstood the move back idea. If you choose to move back 1 meter to jump or step, you do not have to land behind where your original disc landed. You just have to start your leap or step behind your new lie that was moved back and can release the disc once you're off the ground. You can land beyond your marked back lie as far as you're able. However, you are restricted to only taking one walking step leading to your step on the lie that starts your jump or step, i.e. no running or multi-step run-up prior to the jump/step. That's to avoid the running and long jump leaping slam dunk being allowed.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

Ah, you misunderstood the move back idea. If you choose to move back 1 meter to jump or step, you do not have to land behind where your original disc landed. You just have to start your leap or step behind your new lie that was moved back and can release the disc once you're off the ground. You can land beyond your marked back lie as far as you're able. However, you are restricted to only taking one walking step leading to your step on the lie that starts your jump or step, i.e. no running or multi-step run-up prior to the jump/step. That's to avoid the running and long jump leaping slam dunk being allowed.

I couldn't do a slam dunk when I was 20! Your 1-meter proposal still is punishing in the woods, on at least some occasions. Again, I say submit the idea to the powers-that-be and see what happens.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I couldn't do a slam dunk when I was 20! It still is punishing in the woods, on at least some occasions. Again, I say submit the idea to the powers-that-be and see what happens.

I know they're working on it but I'm not sure some on the RC want to fix the issues.

 

[DumfriesLizzie]

I know they're working on it but I'm not sure some on the RC want to fix the issues.

Might take more than a minute... If the heart of the matter is that you want people to take one (and only one) plant step behind the original lie (whether they are jumping or stepping...no runup, no walkup), then maybe start with just that? Some of us are already doing that. We wouldn't be penalized. Please though allow everyone to continue to follow-through. Thanks!

 

[Cgkdisc]

Might take more than a minute... If the heart of the matter is that you want people to take one (and only one) plant step behind the original lie (whether they are jumping or stepping...no runup, no walkup), then maybe start with just that? Some of us are already doing that. We wouldn't be penalized. Please though allow everyone to continue to follow-through. Thanks!

It's not about any one thing but making all throws including tee shots like 3-pt shots in basketball where you can run up, jump, step as long as your take off point is on your lie no matter how far you are from the target. It's not that difficult of a concept to think it can't be implemented. Even allow contact with the marker upon take-off. It's easier to fix all of these issues in one swell foop than trying to tweak any one issue.