The Twitch of the Hips

[RoDeO]

Should have probably worded that better not lack of distance but knowledge. Yes hips do rotate but do you consciously rotate them is a different animal. Just a thought process here if you were on a snowboard the way you are describing the throw and the hip action would essentially be the start of a 360. Spinning the rear hip would send your left side around the front side and it´s not very efficent way to throw. I imagine if I were to throw whilst on a snowboard it would push the nose of the board down and lift the rear end.

It's hard to describe but it's definitely not the mentality of intentionally trying to just rotate the hips. Like I don't consciously think about rotation or amount of rotation, etc. It is a conscious effort though to come into the plant position withthat loaded up feeling in the hips and torso. You have to be able yo feel the rotation in the hips and especially the torso and backside of the shoulder yo be able to throw correctly. The "one leg drill" (which I believe should be the "two leg drill) actually helps to promote the correct initial hip rotation.

 

[sidewinder22]

It's hard to describe but it's definitely not the mentality of intentionally trying to just rotate the hips. Like I don't consciously think about rotation or amount of rotation, etc. It is a conscious effort though to come into the plant position withthat loaded up feeling in the hips and torso. You have to be able yo feel the rotation in the hips and especially the torso and backside of the shoulder yo be able to throw correctly. The "one leg drill" (which I believe should be the "two leg drill) actually helps to promote the correct initial hip rotation.

Wouldn't Two Leg Drill just be a normal golf or batting stance starting with weight pressure distribution about equal 50/50, and shifting back to 20/80 or more? Two Leg Drill would imply equality on both legs I would think.

I believe it's called One Leg Drill because the majority of weight and rotational axis remains on front leg. Weight pressure might get to 80/20, but certainly not shifting a majority of weight back or the rotational axis. Some people also call it the Flamingo Drill, maybe the 80/20 Drill would be better for the pedants.

 

[RoDeO]

Wouldn't Two Leg Drill just be a normal golf or batting stance starting with weight pressure distribution about equal 50/50, and shifting back to 20/80 or more? Two Leg Drill would imply equality on both legs I would think.

I believe it's called One Leg Drill because the majority of weight and rotational axis remains on front leg. Weight pressure might get to 80/20, but certainly not shifting a majority of weight back or the rotational axis. Some people also call it the Flamingo Drill, maybe the 80/20 Drill would be better for the pedants.

I just watched your video again, the part where you throw at the beginning and as the backswing happens your weight shifts to the rear foot then at reachback you transition forward with that slight turn of the hips and then your weight shifts to the front leg. It had a lot of people confused because they are thinking you try to balance all your weight on the front leg all the time during the drill. But that isn't good mechanics. There has to be a weight shift and thus you have to use "two" legs.

 

[RowingBoats]

I just watched your video again, the part where you throw at the beginning and as the backswing happens your weight shifts to the rear foot then at reachback you transition forward with that slight turn of the hips and then your weight shifts to the front leg. It had a lot of people confused because they are thinking you try to balance all your weight on the front leg all the time during the drill. But that isn't good mechanics. There has to be a weight shift and thus you have to use "two" legs.

This is just not correct. I have great balance, and its still hard for me, but I can absolutely stand on one leg and generate ground up power into my swing.

 

[RoDeO]

This is just not correct. I have great balance, and its still hard for me, but I can absolutely stand on one leg and generate ground up power into my swing.

Maybe a little but I would bet it's mostly arm.

 

[seedlings]

For a bystander reading this thread, if it says 'drill' then it's only a small part of the whole. Football players high-step through tires, which is ridiculous without tires on field during games. By definition a drill is not a complete and fully formed technique.

__________ (fill in the blank) drill is not the gold standard backhand stroke for use on the course. It's... a... drill.

 

[RoDeO]

For a bystander reading this thread, if it says 'drill' then it's only a small part of the whole. Football players high-step through tires, which is ridiculous without tires on field during games. By definition a drill is not a complete and fully formed technique.

__________ (fill in the blank) drill is not the gold standard backhand stroke for use on the course. It's... a... drill.

I agree. And in Sidewinders one leg drill, his practice throws at the beginning has him using both legs. Thus it's really a two leg drill, or should be. There is no benefit to balancing on one leg and throwing from it, that would reinforce and teach all arm mechanics.

 

[RowingBoats]

I agree. And in Sidewinders one leg drill, his practice throws at the beginning has him using both legs. Thus it's really a two leg drill, or should be. There is no benefit to balancing on one leg and throwing from it, that would reinforce and teach all arm mechanics.

You are 100% just straight up wrong. And honestly, this exact moment of complete wrongness might be the crux of your entire saga of 'spin' that I have read about.

 

[RoDeO]

You are 100% just straight up wrong. And honestly, this exact moment of complete wrongness might be the crux of your entire saga of 'spin' that I have read about.

Tell me, how do you initiate hip and torso rotation while balancing only on your front leg? I cant remember who it was but they showed a video and they were all arm with their arm draging their shoulders and hips around from the momentum.

 

[seedlings]

The hip rotation IS the shifting of weight to the front leg.

Edit: on full throws, not up shots

 

[RoDeO]

The hip rotation IS the shifting of weight to the front leg.

Edit: on full throws, not up shots

The hip rotation works in conjunction with the weight shift. I can shift side to side and get absolutely no hip rotation. The hips can rotate one of two ways- they can be dragged through and turned by strong arming or they can be initiated by the legs just before front foot plant which also triggers torso and shoulder rotation which whips the disc through via the arm lever.

 

[sidewinder22]

I can shift side to side and get absolutely no hip rotation.

This is physically impossible, especially if you land toe to heel, or make a backswing.

The hips can rotate one of two ways- they can be dragged through and turned by strong arming or they can be initiated by the legs just before front foot plant which also triggers torso and shoulder rotation which whips the disc through via the arm lever.

Or you can remain planted and rotate them on One Leg with the arm following along for the ride.

Strong Arming on One Leg will get you maybe 50'.

 

[RoDeO]

This is physically impossible, especially if you land toe to heel, or make a backswing.


Or you can remain planted and rotate them on One Leg with the arm following along for the ride.

Strong Arming on One Leg will get you maybe 50'.

I just videoed myself and just practiced backswing and pull through with no rotation emphasis and guess what? Absolutely no hip rotation. So, yes, it is possible
I can show you the video if you want.
The problem with standing solely on the front leg and trying to throw from it is that you end up using your momentum of the arm and disc to rotate from the top down which drags the hips through last. That is what happens when you strong arm.
I look at players like Paige Pierce who, because of their small frame, must use legs and hips to generate power. This video is one of my favorites because it shows very clearly how and when her hips begin to rotate. Watch precisely at the 1:05 mark. At this moment her hips begin to rotate but you can tell that her weight hasn't fully come into brace yet because the hip isn't rising upwards just yet. As brace happens and her hip comes up the rotation continues on up in that kinetic chain. She's literally unwinding from her legs upwards into her shoulders. The key here is that the hips begin to rotate during the weight transition from rear to front leg. We know the brace moment because the front hip comes upwards as her weight comes forward into the brace.

https://youtu.be/Nf39x7vDbAg

 

[RandyC]

So... Last time I posted this your analysis was that this is strong arming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyR3QTozz8&feature=youtu.be

Please watch it again and where your focus should be is my front knee, front hip and rear leg countering the swing. You can also take note how the leg "pumps/whips" my lower arm open. and IF I was strong arming I would never get to that finish position due to muscle tension preventing me swinging fluidly thru.

 

[sidewinder22]

I just videoed myself and just practiced backswing and pull through with no rotation emphasis and guess what? Absolutely no hip rotation. So, yes, it is possible
I can show you the video if you want.
The problem with standing solely on the front leg and trying to throw from it is that you end up using your momentum of the arm and disc to rotate from the top down which drags the hips through last. That is what happens when you strong arm.

This is not true. Put some accelerometers on and then show me the real data instead of your perception.

As brace happens and her hip comes up the rotation continues on up in that kinetic chain. She's literally unwinding from her legs upwards into her shoulders. The key here is that the hips begin to rotate during the weight transition from rear to front leg. We know the brace moment because the front hip comes upwards as her weight comes forward into the brace.

Almost sounds like Feldberg's Hip to Sky Drill that you say is terrible. Looks like his hips rotated making that lateral shift just like Paige.

 

[RoDeO]

So... Last time I posted this your analysis was that this is strong arming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyR3QTozz8&feature=youtu.be

Please watch it again and where your focus should be is my front knee, front hip and rear leg countering the swing. You can also take note how the leg "pumps/whips" my lower arm open. and IF I was strong arming I would never get to that finish position due to muscle tension preventing me swinging fluidly thru.

Yeah, it's strong arming. Your shoulders are ahead of your hips in rotation. Strongarming at its finest.

 

[ru4por]

Not sure what you mean by the noob trap. I don't see myself in a trap. I feel like the number 1 thing right now for more distance in myself is conditioning muscles to fire better and faster. The mechanic tweaks will add a little bit more. Understanding how the disc is propelled is 90% of the mystery. I feel I know that. Now, getting consistency and building upon that foundation is all that's left.

The noob trap is not understanding the quest. Learning how to throw, with both distance and accuracy, and then translating what you learn into competition, is a journey. One that has changes. One that will provide you with a multitude of discoveries....some helpful, some setbacks, most just plateaus to be used as building blocks. Noobs embrace a discovery and fail to understand the importance of the foundation and it generally stalls their progress. Many of us have really felt we figured it out.

"A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that mistake again.But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him how to avoid the mistake altogether."

Roy H. Williams

 

[SaROCaM]

Understanding how the disc is propelled is 90% of the mystery. I feel I know that.

The feel ain't real.

If you don't understand how Feldberg's advice fits in, you have an incomplete understanding.

Not sure what you mean by the noob trap. I don't see myself in a trap.

That's the thing about traps...if you don't heed the warnings you won't realize you are in one until it's too late.

 

[azplaya25]

So... Last time I posted this your analysis was that this is strong arming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyR3QTozz8&feature=youtu.be

Please watch it again and where your focus should be is my front knee, front hip and rear leg countering the swing. You can also take note how the leg "pumps/whips" my lower arm open. and IF I was strong arming I would never get to that finish position due to muscle tension preventing me swinging fluidly thru.

This is so solid ...hope you don't mind but I slowed this down and made it into a gif. Really been working on feeling the slingshot/trebuchet from the one leg and you execute it perfectly.

https://imgflip.com/gif/4hnk0x

 

[RoDeO]

This is not true. Put some accelerometers on and then show me the real data instead of your perception.


Almost sounds like Feldberg's Hip to Sky Drill that you say is terrible. Looks like his hips rotated making that lateral shift just like Paige.

That's a good drill Paige is doing but that's just laterally shifting back and forth. It's not what actually happens when she throws. As she shifts laterally her hips are already rotating. The lead hip coming up signifies strong brace or full weight shift. If we freeze it precisely at that moment her hips are already substantially open thus proving that shift into strong brace isnt what initiates hip rotation.
https://youtu.be/ZG3YXTE2Dx0