Thorns

[DavidSauls]

I've always found "nearest lie...." to be interesting wording in the casual relief. What's the nearest lie to an alligator? An inch away? My accuracy isn't very good when standing an inch away from an alligator. In fact, I'll probably take the stroke and more than 5 meters relief.

That said, I'm not sure why the rule couldn't include thorny plants, at least. Not too much vagueness in what constitutes thorns, at least no more than which dogs are dangerous, is there?

You shouldn't throw into thorns and they're uncomfortable, but you can play from them if you're willing. Not unlike most casual water. Why have to?

 

[sidewinding]

I always seem to run into a few pricks during sanctioned tournaments.

 

[Cgkdisc]

A random group or official would not have guidance from the rulebook to make the hazardous plant call for consistency. If your group members are not allergic to PI, they might rule no free relief. Another group might say free relief. For all other rules, the group or official can look to the rulebook for how to make a call for consistency.

If the rule just said "hazardous plants," then a player landing in ragweed could take free relief claiming allergies (the plant is "attacking" me). That rule change is not likely to happen.

 

[mudslinger]

A random group or official would not have guidance from the rulebook to make the hazardous plant call for consistency. If your group members are not allergic to PI, they might rule no free relief. Another group might say free relief. For all other rules, the group or official can look to the rulebook for how to make a call for consistency.

If the rule just said "hazardous plants," then a player landing in ragweed could take free relief claiming allergies (the plant is "attacking" me). That rule change is not likely to happen.

You clearly have NO trust in a group to make an rule decision...there are plenty of group call provisions in the rulebook which helps eliminate a committee from trying to solve every problem on every course. I think any person understands that PI is a hazard and it would be extremely rare for an entire group of random people to say it isn't.

Again, I ask for a legitimate argument on why hazardous plants are not added...so far you've given me flawed reasoning (allergies) and now stated that groups are incapable of making common sense decisions.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The question is not why there's no free relief for nasty plants. You threw off the fairway into them. But why is there free relief for landing near hazardous animals? It's because they can come after you and may even be on the fairway. Simple as that. That's the logic for the current rule.

 

[mudslinger]

So me getting PI infection for weeks is not hazardous? i would rather get stung by bees and have swelling for 2 days than weeks of PI infection oozing all over. I can take free relief from the bees (hazardous insects), but still can't take anything for PI.

Honestly CK, i don't see why you make a rule to promote safety with certain elements (dogs, insects, harmless water puddles) but completely ignore safety in other areas. Are you the new Gregg Williams of the pDGA?

 

[denny ritner]

You clearly have NO trust in a group to make an rule decision...there are plenty of group call provisions in the rulebook which helps eliminate a committee from trying to solve every problem on every course. ...so far you've given me flawed reasoning (allergies) and now stated that groups are incapable of making common sense decisions.

you're talking about what already happens WAY too often in our sport, groups INVENTING rules and justifying it by saying "it was a group call".

it is my hope that the rule book will continue to be written with greater specificity in future revisions to reduce the need to make group calls.

 

[mudslinger]

you're talking about what already happens WAY too often in our sport, groups INVENTING rules and justifying it by saying "it was a group call".

it is my hope that the rule book will continue to be written with greater specificity in future revisions to reduce the need to make group calls.

Wrong entirely. The sport is based on the players making decisions based upon the written rules. Every aspect, from determining a lie to 10m rule is entirely on the player/group to determine at the time the ruling is needed. The group is used to confirm the player's interpretation of the rules, so leaving that check/balance out of the equation only promotes the individuals unique interpretation of the rules. No where do i see a Rules Committee standing over our shoulders at every event enforcing rules

 

[SteezeOG]

The plains are filled with osage orange and honeylocust so I am always looking for thorns. Some of them get about 4 inches and will go completely through the sole of your shoe and into your foot. I have a two foot machete that would tie onto my bag. I might start taking that with me this summer and ridding the courses of thorns.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

We should just eliminate the rule book all together, just play by the spirit of the game.all problems solved.

 

[mygunsbigger]

A few briars dont bother me,(not 2-4" thorns though) the only plants making me bleed every time i leave the fairway is the dang palms. Those fronds tear me up at least once a week.


:| I need to learn to stay on the fairway...

 

[hophead]

So me getting PI infection for weeks is not hazardous? i would rather get stung by bees and have swelling for 2 days than weeks of PI infection oozing all over. I can take free relief from the bees (hazardous insects), but still can't take anything for PI.

Ding ding, exactly. Roughly 30% of the pop is allergic to poison ivy. If you're highly allergic you're going to suffer for weeks after a tourney if u get into it. In NC it's super heavy during the summer at more courses than not and you definately have it in fairways. Hell the Asheville course was basically dropped into a PI jungle. Tees, fairways, everywhere. By the way for anyone going to worlds expect it on all CLT courses, and very heavy on some.

Second, how can u enjoy the golf or play well staring down a 12ft wide fairway tunnel shot to a pin 200+ ft away with PI jungles on both sides the whole way. Hello kinston dg course. Oh yeah after u pucker up and toss it right in that PI jungle the good news is you're best mid is now sidelined the rest of the round. Don't fret pal there's only 14 holes left before u can try to get that oil off. Plus you probably don't need that butter mid to avoid the PI on 10 of those 14 holes left. Have fun, only 3 rounds left! Woohoo

 

[mjoyce]

My question on all of this is are you going to retrieve your disc from the thorns or the poison ivy? If the answer is yes then I don't see what you need casual relief for.

Especially in this poison ivy debate. If you threw your disc into poison ivy and your going to touch the poison ivy to get your disc then your going to get poison ivy whether you take relief and throw from a better lie or throw from where your disc landed.

 

[mudslinger]

My question on all of this is are you going to retrieve your disc from the thorns or the poison ivy? If the answer is yes then I don't see what you need casual relief for.

Especially in this poison ivy debate. If you threw your disc into poison ivy and your going to touch the poison ivy to get your disc then your going to get poison ivy whether you take relief and throw from a better lie or throw from where your disc landed.

Yes I'm going to retrieve my disc, but i'm not going to put my bare hands in the poison ivy...i'll use a branch or something. with a stance, it's difficult to cover all portions that may be affected by the substance.

hence, why i'm asking why there isn't a rule for casual relief since it is clearly a safety issue. CK's responses have been that he basically doesn't trust players to make a common sense decision about it.

 

[denny ritner]

Wrong entirely. The sport is based on the players making decisions based upon the written rules. Every aspect, from determining a lie to 10m rule is entirely on the player/group to determine at the time the ruling is needed. The group is used to confirm the player's interpretation of the rules, so leaving that check/balance out of the equation only promotes the individuals unique interpretation of the rules. No where do i see a Rules Committee standing over our shoulders at every event enforcing rules

The harmful insects rule was created to address specific, isolated instances. Creating a rule for P.I., thorns, etc. opens a huge pandoras box. As other posters have pointed out, courses with P.I. or thorns have LOTS of it. Players would be given lots of opportunity to game the rules by selectively taking relief when it would be advantageous and playing from their lie when it's better. How many P.I. plants would constitute casual relief? How thick? How close to the disc?

This would open it up for a huge variety of interpretations between groups. Players would gain/lose strokes depending on their ability to politic the group.

The rule book needs MORE specificity and a rule like this would introduce LOTS more vagueness.

In cases where there are contained, concentrated areas of P.I., dense thorns, etc. TD's are afforded the options to make those areas OB or bunCRs.

The game of golf is an individual game, based on honor. I don't want to be involved with policing my playing partners. I want to be involved with group decisions on rules to the least amount possible. Introducing a rule that is so vague and which would require I spend much more time discussing rules would not be fun and would not be fair from group to group.

 

[mudslinger]

I would rather spend 2 mins of my round to give another player the safety of casual relief from PI than to listen to them whine about it for 2 weeks.

I'm not talking about opening Pandora's box. In fact, the rules NOW don't even have that specific wording around the "approved casual" objects. You could just as easily go back and forth on the hazards of insects as you could on PI. Point is, common sense SHOULD be the guidance for rules and in most places that's the case. Common sense would say "Don't touch PI", but the rulebook says "If you don't want to touch PI", take a stroke as punishment. The rulebook is providing incentive to not make the safe decision and introduces harm (albeit a oozy, itchy infection) at the price of a stroke.

Save the stroke and your weeks of PI infection. This is so stupid how we over complicate a simple rule because we're afraid of someone else taking advantage of the rules.

 

[denny ritner]

IIn fact, the rules NOW don't even have that specific wording around the "approved casual" objects. You could just as easily go back and forth on the hazards of insects as you could on PI.

Yes. One example of many cases where the language needs to tightened up. The book needs to continue to evolve to minimize the need for interpretation in the field.

 

[mygunsbigger]

I would rather spend 2 mins of my round to give another player the safety of casual relief from PI than to listen to them whine about it for 2 weeks..

this:thmbup:

 

[nohr]

If you throw a bad shot you deserve a bad lie. Get down on one knee sneak an extended foot in there and pitch out.

 

[mudslinger]

If you throw a bad shot you deserve a bad lie. Get down on one knee sneak an extended foot in there and pitch out.

Could have thrown a great shot and ended up in a patch of PI in a fairway. If you can take a stance without causing harm, absolutely that's the thing to do, but if you can't, you should be given casual relief.