Unplayable Lie Rule, please explain

[bobmcnelly]

So I play a lot of rugged mountain courses here in Colorado with some real rough terrain. And also some real thick rough. I've heard of the unplayable lie rule and I even just looked it up on the PDGA site, but don't fully understand.

So for example where I play there are many places to get stuck in either a bush the size of horse or in super tight scrub oak where even to try to throw a overhand is just comical. Would these situations be considerd unplayable? Or is it just play it where it lies?

I would be interested to hear specific situations in tournament or match play when you guys have used this rule.

 

[bradharris]

The rule is pretty clear on what is considered an obstacle to stance.

"Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the Director before the round. To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director)."

A bush does not qualify. So you either need to find a way to get into the bush, or take the optional relief option with a one throw penalty:

"Optional Relief. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie which is no closer to the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw shall be added to the player's score."

 

[Cgkdisc]

Unplayable is totally a player call. If you wish to take a 1-throw penalty and either move back on the line of play as far as you like or rethrow from previous lie, it's your call.

 

[bobmcnelly]

So if there's loose leaves or broken branches I get 5ms behind my lie without penalty? And that has to be a decision with my group?

 

[krupicka]

It's the closest lie up to 5m. Not just 5m.

 

[JC17393]

So if there's loose leaves or broken branches I get 5ms behind my lie without penalty? And that has to be a decision with my group?

It's nearest lie within 5 meters, not necessarily the full 5 meters. Also, you are supposed to first attempt to move loose leaves, broken branches or other objects classified as casual obstacles, only taking relief if moving them is impossible or impractical.

But that really has nothing to do with "unplayable lie" (it's called casual relief). In fact, "unplayable lie" isn't even a rule in the book anymore. What you're looking for is the "optional re-throw" and "optional relief" rules (803.02). It allows you to take relief from any lie/position you choose with a one-throw penalty added to your score.

 

[Romans 5-8]

Question????? On "unplayable lie"????

My disc landed in a crevice or crevasse, not sure about spelling, but a dang nook or rock wall fracture dealio once. It was about 10 feet behind the basket and I thought I had an easy bird until I saw where my disc was. I was curious as to how this should have played out.

My disc was literally under the rock wall, there was no way to get my foot behind the disc in a legal stance. I could kind of get one foot behind the marker, but I would literally be laying down, and my other leg/arm would be in front of marker bc of the overhanging rock in front of disc. I couldn't straddle, or do anything to be behind the disc bc it was hugging the rock wall. There was no ob on the hole except the path and left, so I wasn't out of bounds, I can't take a meter of relief right?

The group I was with just told me to do my best and put one foot back behind and lean back against the wall and putt. I mean I was within 10ft, and it was still an easy putt either way, but I felt weird bc I didn't know if it was legal.

Should I have been stroked for parking it next to the basket? I even had the best drive. I finished 20th place anyway, so I wasn't too worried about the one stroke, but I forgot to ask the td, after 4 rounds I still had a 3hr drive home, and it was the last thing on my mind.

 

[bobmcnelly]

It's nearest lie within 5 meters, not necessarily the full 5 meters. Also, you are supposed to first attempt to move loose leaves, broken branches or other objects classified as casual obstacles, only taking relief if moving them is impossible or impractical.

But that really has nothing to do with "unplayable lie" (it's called casual relief). In fact, "unplayable lie" isn't even a rule in the book anymore. What you're looking for is the "optional re-throw" and "optional relief" rules (803.02). It allows you to take relief from any lie/position you choose with a one-throw penalty added to your score.

Thank you! This makes a lot more sense.

 

[JC17393]

Question????? On "unplayable lie"????

My disc landed in a crevice or crevasse, not sure about spelling, but a dang nook or rock wall fracture dealio once. It was about 10 feet behind the basket and I thought I had an easy bird until I saw where my disc was. I was curious as to how this should have played out.

My disc was literally under the rock wall, there was no way to get my foot behind the disc in a legal stance. I could kind of get one foot behind the marker, but I would literally be laying down, and my other leg/arm would be in front of marker bc of the overhanging rock in front of disc. I couldn't straddle, or do anything to be behind the disc bc it was hugging the rock wall. There was no ob on the hole except the path and left, so I wasn't out of bounds, I can't take a meter of relief right?

The group I was with just told me to do my best and put one foot back behind and lean back against the wall and putt. I mean I was within 10ft, and it was still an easy putt either way, but I felt weird bc I didn't know if it was legal.

Should I have been stroked for parking it next to the basket? I even had the best drive. I finished 20th place anyway, so I wasn't too worried about the one stroke, but I forgot to ask the td, after 4 rounds I still had a 3hr drive home, and it was the last thing on my mind.

802.02 Establishing Position
C. If the disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc.

You could have taken a stance on the top of the wall, if possible.

802.03 Marking the Lie
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, the player may instead mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

You also have the option to mark behind the wall so that you can take a stance behind your mark. Depending on the height of the wall, doing so might not be all that advantageous.

 

[ERicJ]

It's the closest lie up to 5m. Not just 5m.

It's nearest lie within 5 meters, not necessarily the full 5 meters.

That's one of the most often misinterpreted rules in the book. Good job clarifying. :thmbup:

 

[Romans 5-8]

802.02 Establishing Position
C. If the disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc.

You could have taken a stance on the top of the wall, if possible.

802.03 Marking the Lie
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, the player may instead mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

You also have the option to mark behind the wall so that you can take a stance behind your mark. Depending on the height of the wall, doing so might not be all that advantageous.

Thanks for the reply. The thing is both of those options you mentioned weren't possible because we were at a course in twin falls called ROCK creek, it is kind of in a canyon on one side and the rock wall was like 40ft tall. There wasn't really a way I could do either of those. I wish it was local, I would just play the course and take a picture, but it's a few hours from my house.

 

[blazerico]

The rule is pretty clear on what is considered an obstacle to stance...A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles...loose leaves or debris...

loose leaves and debris? every coarse i play has loose leaves and debris on almost every hole especially in the fall. I should use this rule more often.

 

[bradharris]

loose leaves and debris? every coarse i play has loose leaves and debris on almost every hole especially in the fall. I should use this rule more often.

Sure, but focus on the second half of the rule:

"To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director)."

 

[JC17393]

I think it should also be noted that none of the things that qualify as casual obstacles are casual obstacles unless they are in the player's stance. You're not allowed to just remove leaves and debris from anywhere on the fairway at any time. It has to be behind your mark, at least in part. If no part of it is behind the mark/in your stance, you have to leave it where it is.

 

[krupicka]

Jump putters, you also need to leave things where they are even if they are in your landing zone.

 

[bradharris]

Jump putters, you also need to leave things where they are even if they are in your landing zone.

Unless they're also in your stance...

 

[krupicka]

Correct. If they are in your stance then yes they can be moved.

If they are only in your in your run-up they shouldn't be moved either. Players are not granted a runway to throw.

 

[Steve West]

Correct. If they are in your stance then yes they can be moved.

If they are only in your in your run-up they shouldn't be moved either. Players are not granted a runway to throw.

Well,

803.01 Obstacles And Relief
Last updated: Thursday, July 18, 2013 - 18:19
B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie:

 

[JamesM]

Would there be a stroke penalty for optional relief taken for safety reasons?

We had some recent rains and a disc landed on the opposite edge of a small 7 ft. deep ditch normally played as casual. At the time, the ditch was full of running water and the edges were extremely slick, and crumbling into the water. The player elected to move away from the basket on the same line of play to safer ground.

 

[bradharris]

Would there be a stroke penalty for optional relief taken for safety reasons?

We had some recent rains and a disc landed on the opposite edge of a small 7 ft. deep ditch normally played as casual. At the time, the ditch was full of running water and the edges were extremely slick, and crumbling into the water. The player elected to move away from the basket on the same line of play to safer ground.

If it's more than 5 meters, then yes, there is a 1-stroke penalty.