Val drops Innova?

[StevenSeagal]

I think this whole message would've been better received if Val approached the announcement differently. I think most people would agree we need to do a whole lot more to get women and girls to appreciate and play the sport and by extension that means Innova needs to do something. The problem is that message was muddled by vague accusations of wrongdoing AND not a lot of discussion about what that something actually is, why Val had to leave Innova to accomplish it and what she actually plans on doing to accomplish this outside of Innova.

 

[tomsdiscs]

I love women's soccer and think it is great entertainment, men's soccer seems like a competition to see who is the biggest baby and does the best job of flopping on the ground and whining.

I never had a jumpshot, but it never slowed me down, I am not angry because I did not get an NBA contract, I am grateful for the gifts I have and accept my limitations as they are.

I adore Val and always have, I often bump into Val at Masters Cup and her smile makes the world a better place.

But her score in Worlds last year puts her in dead last for Open (except for some Swede named Broman, and Swedes are not real people, at least according to Wikipedia).

What if all males stopped playing disc golf ?

That means no playing at all, no practice, no tournaments, no buying discs, no throwing discs, etc.

What would Val's situation look like then ?

Actually, she would not be in dead last in Open, I did not net out her Semis score, but the point is she would have been way down on the list, we are not going to tune into the Super Bowl next month to watch the team that finished in 8th place, humans just do not work that way yet many strain their brains over the way things are......

 

[Royalhghnss]

Then they should only sponsor McBeth. He's the only one who consistently moves plastic. I'd be fine with that. But don't give Sexton and Val the same baseline deal.

Sexton moves a lot of plastic. Those firebirds fly off the shelves when they're in stock. I bet they outsell Val's TL by orders of magnitude.

Business.

Anybody who was around when the Champ Valkyrie was a JK signature disc heard somebody at some point in all seriousness tell somebody else not to throw it becasue it was a "Women's disc." :| I heard it enough that I'm pretty confident that her signature hurt the sale of that disc. That to me was the bottom line reason that Des Reading and Val didn't get signature discs. I think Innova already knows from experience that it was going to hurt sales.

Now, it's not Val's fault that people are stupid and dumb guys won't buy a disc with a woman's name on it. However, it's asking a lot from a business to do something on principal that they know is a bad business move. They would have to REALLY believe in that something to do that.

2nd this. I heard this so many times when I started ("that's a disc for girls"). I would not be surprised if Innova noticed Valks not selling as well once they had a JK's name on it. If that is true, I'm sure it affected their thought process going forward. They're a business, businesses exist to make money.

Imagine a total noob going into Dick's. He see's a JK valk, with a Girl's name, and a Groove. They're gonna buy the groove 90% of the time, cuz it's not a girl disc. I bet that happened tens of thousands of times over the years.

Never meet ur hero's

:wall:

sigh. You haven't met him, you read his comment on the internet. Paul is nothing but great. He was nice to me when no one knew who the hell I was, and he's been nice to every fan I've seen him interact with.

 

[corin_brown]

I think this whole message would've been better received if Val approached the announcement differently.

This was my impression too. But unfortunately, in a sport as minuscule as ours, where the biggest disc maker can't even afford to market their discs correctly to half the population with any sort of modern sophistication, conversely, our athletes routinely commit PR gaffes and fail to express themselves clearly in ways richer athletes working in more popular sports with professional managers and PR professionals on their payroll just don't. It's a money/budget thing.

But when pro disc golfers aren't even compensated to the point of being able to tour without having to sleep on strangers' floors, these are the sad realities of being #discgolfrich.

The problem is that message was muddled by vague accusations of wrongdoing AND not a lot of discussion about what that something actually is, why Val had to leave Innova to accomplish it and what she actually plans on doing to accomplish this outside of Innova.

I have heard Val interviewed many times and she has never failed to sound positive, charming, gracious, pleasant, genuine, sweet, funny, etc. She's also a decorated professional, maybe the most decorated professional ever. And I have no reason to doubt her motives or to think that she has ever operated or ever will operate in bad faith. I couldn't imagine a better ambassador for a sport or a better spokesperson for a corporate sponsor. However, that statement she posted yesterday was poorly written.

I have no doubt that her thinking was pure but she did not clearly express her ideas in her writing and her statement was vague and confusing as a result, and the message was ultimately lost.

But who can blame her really? She's a professional athlete, not a PR Wizard. When the professionals in our sport have to create a touring budget, professional public relations is one of the first line items to go, sometime after the private plane but before gas, lodging & food.

Again, #discgolfrich

 

[JC17393]

I think people are taking the discussion too much to an extreme to say that what Val wants/deserves is 100% equal treatment/compensation to the likes of McBeth and Climo. Wouldn't surprise me at all if she would be satisfied with some sort of acknowledgment as a true gesture of support, sales numbers and business be damned.

I can think of only one Innova sponsored MPO player to not get a signature disc after winning Worlds in the last 25 years...Cam Todd. He left for Discraft in part to get that signature disc (the CT Challenger). Cam unfortunately won his Worlds at a time where Climo was the only guy getting his name on discs. It wasn't until after he left, and I think his second title, that Barry Schultz got his signature disc(s). After that, Feldberg, Avery, and McBeth got their signature discs after their (in McBeth's case, first) win. The precedent has been set within Innova at this point.

That precedent doesn't have to carry over to the women's field exactly, but there arguably is a precedent to go on with FPO players. Julianna got the JK Aviar after 3 titles. Got the Valk after her fourth. She remains on the JK Aviar as a 5X champ despite not being much of an active player for a decade (2006 was her last Worlds appearance). Valarie has been steadily on tour for about 10 years with four world titles and plenty of other notable wins. On a par with the top men? Maybe not, but she's still out there and visible and active. Just one signature disc after 3 world titles probably wouldn't have been a bad gesture to make, especially once the decision was made to give a signature disc to every MPO World Champ in their camp.

 

[ranger]

If Innova had given Val a signature Tern, I don't think those sales would lag behind sales of Sexton Firebirds. But again, any Innova sales numbers are greatly appreciated.

My argument is premised on the fact that crowds and sales numbers are so relatively low in disc golf that it wouldn't cost Innova much to support Val at a higher level than Nate. And I think you can tell from this forum that her leaving Innova is not a good look for the company. I've never heard a bad word about her.

How about a direct question: Do you think, based on Val's accomplishments, that she should have been the second-best supported player at Innova?

The sexton firebirds would outsell a star tern.

Just my opinion tho.


Edit

Just read signature. Ignore the above.

 

[corndog23]

I don't know that anyone in this discussion is saying Val deserves the McBeth or Climo treatment. Seems to me that there are certain people here who are trying to downplay the fact that she has won FOUR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!! One of which also has four world championships, and he should know that it's not real easy to accomplish. I don't care what division you play. Val should be recognized appropriately, and up to this point, I don't believe she feels that she has been. Simple as that.

 

[JRW III]

The problem is, if the sport is 92% men and 8% women, so the manufacturers give men preferential treatment, more sponsorships, bigger cuts of the tournament prizes, and easier access to representation, do you think that the fraction of women playing will increase or decrease?

Pandering to the majority is how you keep the majority in control. The bottom line on the spreadsheet is not where fairness is found, as doing things unfairly is often more profitable.

That is, for example, why the government regulates business in the broader world. If left unchecked, workers would be exploited, the environment would be ravaged, and so on, because there's no good business case for treating workers right or preserving the environment. And if just one company does the right (and more expensive) thing, and the others do not, the others will stomp all over the company doing the right thing.

So yeah, doing the right thing for women will affect the bottom line negatively, but if disc golf wants fairness for women, it will cost money, and that is (pun intended) a hard sell. Doing the right thing is hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it all the time.

Your ideals sound great on paper but have no basis in reality. If "the manufacturers give men preferential treatment, more sponsorships, bigger cuts of the tournament prizes, and easier access to representation" then it will have almost zero effect on the number of women that play. New players, male or female, rarely start playing because the noticed a professional. Most new players don't even know that there are professional disc golfers until they have been playing awhile.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's too bad there isn't a good answer to this.

Disc golf is doing a terrible job attracting female participants, especially females who want to compete. As a result, the women who do compete do so in smaller fields and have a smaller overall impact on the sport. Because the fields are smaller, the financial gain for winning is smaller. Since the impact is smaller, there is the argument that sponsorship should be financially smaller. All of which does nothing for the fact that disc golf is doing a terrible job of attracting female participants. It particularly does not help attract female participants who want a competitive environment. And so the big wheel keeps on turnin'...

We probably need a good idea to break that cycle, but I can't think of one right now. Or anytime in the last 20ish years when it has come up. :\

Well said.

In the back of my mind, I'm wondering what Val has thought of to break this cycle, and how she can do it better by leaving Innova. Presumably we'll find out.

*

A lot of talk about the difference between men and women athletes. It shouldn't matter that the best women can't beat the best men. But it does matter if the best women don't get the same audience as the best men. Because the only value any of these players have is as entertainers and promoters.

In sports where there is parity, or at least something like it, in money or respect, it's because there's an audience.

Of course, disc golf's audience is tiny. But if forums would show as fervent interest in the top women as the top men, and people would follow the women as much as the men in galleries and online streaming, and people would buy discs because Val throws them as much as they buy them when Paul throws them, the female pros would have more leverage. Manufacturers can push and promote, but they're not all-powerful. Don't blame Innova; blame everyone.

 

[joecoin]

Val Current Rating: 953 (as of 18-Oct-2016)

 

[AndyJB]

I must say, this thread and the 2017 Sponsors thread are very interesting from a Sociology perspective. Highly illuminating stuff, and I'm not even done wading through it all.

Both sides have points, and there is no easy answer especially without Val herself getting into specifics which I don't imagine she ever will. I find it pretty awesome to see how many people are intelligently defending her without blatant white knighting. It shows the beggining of a cultural shift in society in general and that bodes well for the future.

Also have to quickly commend both McBeth and Holly Finley for wading into this. These forums can be brutal. Everyone so far seems pretty relaxed though.

Either way, this is a complex situation. At various points my wife, daughter and neice have all played competitive disc golf...my daughter and niece have won their divisions too...and have expressed firm disinterest in ever competiting again. So that goes back quite a few posts to Holly's question of how do we KEEP women and girls in the sport side of disc golf as opposed to the casual (not that casual is bad) while also keeping them playing casually/increasing numbers. Hopefully that is something that Val can work on going forward.

Last thing: if I were Discraft I would offer her the moon to play under the brand.

 

[pmatt1969]

The world is not fair. It does not have to be. What did someone else get that I didn't. I'm a special snowflake. I didn't get my way. So sick of hearing it. Time to toughen up buttercups. So over this PC whiny Pu**y bullshid I hear everyday.

 

[Jay Dub]

The sport is not big enough for Val leaving to matter except to Val and Innova. They don't have her anymore and she's not with them. That's it, nothing more.

To claim a disc golf company who makes all their money off of disc golf does not want the sport to grow is kind of insane.

 

[Anon]

After this exchange with Paul, I feel the same way. Really leaving a sour taste in my mouth about him and Innova. Sucks when your favorites turn out to be not so great IRL.

This has to be some of the most sanctimonious **** i've ever seen posted here.

Not everybody shares your opinion. Get over it. I have a sour taste in my mouth from all of your whining and white knighting.

Seems to me that there are certain people here who are trying to downplay the fact that she has won FOUR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!! One of which also has four world championships, and he should know that it's not real easy to accomplish. I don't care what division you play. Val should be recognized appropriately, and up to this point, I don't believe she feels that she has been. Simple as that.

Four PROTECTED DIVISION world championships. Yes people are trying to downplay it compared to winning open. The fact that you can't see the difference is YOUR problem.

 

[AHagglund]

Women's disc golf is good thing. A very good thing that I wish we had more of. That being said:


1) Innova should spend its money however it wants, because it belongs to them.

2)The second that Innova felt it would be profitable to reimburse the women at the same rate as they reimburse men, they would do it.

3) Speculation about Innova putting money into women's disc golf being a good long-term investment is just that--speculation. Maybe it will work out, maybe it won't. But we don't get to judge Innova, since it's not our money that would be lost if we guess wrong. I have yet to see anyone in this thread offer to personally subsidize Val or WDG.


The solution to all of this: everyone should buy 100 PP Convicts. If women's discs sell, the industry will notice.

 

[wims]

Then they should only sponsor McBeth. He's the only one who consistently moves plastic. I'd be fine with that. But don't give Sexton and Val the same baseline deal.

Why not, Sexton sells a lot of discs, he's a way bigger profile than Valarie. Based on value for Innova, it makes a lot of sense to give Sexton a better deal than Valarie

 

[DiscFifty]

It's obvious the female side of disc golf has the most potential for growth. So the logical long term plan for any disc golf business would be to take some of the profit from the male side, invest in a few marquee women to represent the sport (and their products) and to start building the female side of their business. In this respect, both male and female sponsored athletes should be given the same benefits from said sponsor. (Same bonus levels, same royalties percentages, etc, etc) Granted if I was CEO of said company, I would certainly negotiate a private signing on bonus per athlete and that would be based on perceived marketability. But everything else would be standard across the board, male or female, and 100% based on market performance.

Perhaps this is what DD plans to do with the sponsorship of Paige. I could see Paige representing a new marketing plan for DD to bring in the female market. Actually both Paiges that DD has sponsored are huge assets for targeting the female side of the business.

While Prodigy has Cat, I personally don't see her doing alot to bring in other women to the sport. Perhaps I'm wrong, but she just doesn't have that engaging personality needed to build a brand on. Even though I have (finally) seen her smile more often in recent videos. lol..

I think Innova lost the #1 female ambassador for women's disc golf. They really should have done "anything" to keep her around. At the least, for the next few years to milk her recent success. Perhaps ultimately, this is why Val left, because she didn't see the investment in "her" that she feels she deserves.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's not obvious that the women's side has the most potential for growth.

In all likelihood, in number of participants, there will be more growth on the men's side.

It's the number of participants (customers, spectators) that matter, not the percentage.

 

[SD86]

Just a comment to clarify 'equal value' and 'equal pay' and all that stuff.

Let's say Paul McBeth and Valarie Jenkins Doss have the same arrangement that Innova will pay Paul $1/disc for his sig discs sold, and Val gets $1/disc, as well. Just to keep the numbers hypothetical and tidy, let's say Paul's disc sold 100,000 copies and Val's sold 50,000 copies. Paul gets a check for $100,000. Val gets a check for $50,000.

Were they paid the same? Yes: $1/disc.

Did Paul make more money? Yes. His discs sold more, and he got more money as a result.

Now let's say Sexton has the same contract, and his Glow Champ Firebird sold 200,000 copies, and so he earns $200,000. Wow, he's being paid more than Paul! Is Nate Sexton he more valuable to Innova than 4x World Champ Paul McBeth? Hmmmm, dunno about that... and therein lies the arguments for the past 17 pages of this thread...

But again, and one last time: Per Val's statement, it seems she told Innova she was leaving BEFORE she won the 4th title. If that is correct, then everything she said has to be looked it in a context other than her sig disc after winning her fourth title.

And a note to Holly Finley on retaining women in DG: I wish I knew the answer, and for chess as well as DG. But I don't. As AndyJB said above: there's lots of sociology in this, and there is psychology and physiology as well.

 

[Finny]

This has to be some of the most sanctimonious **** i've ever seen posted here.

Not everybody shares your opinion. Get over it. I have a sour taste in my mouth from all of your whining and white knighting.

Four PROTECTED DIVISION world championships. Yes people are trying to downplay it compared to winning open. The fact that you can't see the difference is YOUR problem.

Well, you seem fun. I read this forum enough to know that none of my posts are in the top 100,000 in sanctimony. I haven't whined once. Is it possible to post that a woman is getting a raw deal without "white knighting"? If so, I think I've done that.

I will never understand this protected division nonsense. Do you think all women's Olympic medals are invalid?