Val drops Innova?

[phrumphkin]

Geeze. I like Pmcbeth in videos and in person but not on the interwebs lol.

Are we sure that was really Paul making those posts tonight though? Part of me feels like his account got hacked by a prankster or something, LOL Or maybe he was just in a mood??

 

[Finny]

I agree Corin, and I think that some other companies are starting to realize the opportunity there. Mainly DD with Paige and her new SIGNATURE convict. She's been on the team for all of a week (officially) but already has a signature disc. I also believe DD is focused on attracting as many new players to the game as possible, including women. They seem to be doing things right with their marketing and social media presence.

Totally agree with you two

 

[Three Putt]

Thats total BS... you and I have evidently been playing a near same amount of time, and I have never heard such nonsense and the talk was my #1 driver from the start.

Sorry, I sold golf discs. I heard it a lot.

It's also still my #1 driver. I have enough JK signature ones I hopefully will never run out of them. The fact that I liked them and threw them doesn't change what I heard happen all the time.

 

[Mulligan]

First off, much love to Paul and Holly for having the intestinal fortitude to discuss this topic openly. Seriously. Thank you.

Having read through the discussion since my initial comment, I'll stick to these following points:

-I had the same initial comparison to tennis in my mind, but thats sport for rich pricks with money to burn (lol, I love tennis), and really not in the same league at the moment, so while I wish it was the case, its not comparable.

-Having previously run a business that relied on dozens of commissioned employees, there are strong arguments in favor of whoever are the top earners. In my case, it was music instrument retail... do I give more money to the best artist that plays with my gear during gigs for personal gain from performance, or the salesperson that earns the most money for the business at large day to day? Sometimes, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how that plays out. Other times its a personal ability beyond the performance stage generates sales. But there is an art to selling that not everyone has, so as someone that has based their own livelihood on commission myself, its hard to fall on any side that doesn't add up in the profit column (which, obviously, we don't have the numbers for here now)

-There is also an art to managing those employees in a way that keeps them all happy and helps to train/support them in a way that increases that profit on a regular basis for all involved. I imagine that support is provided, but the fact of the matter is that that audience draw will always correlate to the product sales.

-If you are going to dedicate a large amount of expense addressing 8% of you clientele, you need to know that the returns are going to be there... do any of us think we are there yet?

-Val told Innova she was leaving at the start of 2016, evidently. If I knew an employee was going to leave that far in advance, honestly, I'd cut them loose that very day. I'd assume they were a liability going forward. But Innova stuck with her, promoted, and did give her a signature disc... one that based in the discussions I read was pretty much expected from the crew here at DGCR, so I don't see how thats a slight at all. That was a really professional and respectful act on the part of Innova to still uphold the contract and even provide the disc that was basically expected as a sig. To then, a solid year later, claim that you have been slighted all along is a really tenuous position to take, to me.

-If you make that kind of a miscalculation as a player, while also being at the top of your sport/division, I'm not so certain that going out like this is the best example of a protest. Wouldn't it have been more of a signal to just jump ship earlier, make your case, and THEN win the Championship to prove the point? She actually benefited from a solid year of support after she voice her concerns... when does that happen anywhere else in sports?

-Paul's point about the different levels of divisions vs open in 100% valid. I'm over 40 and would not expect the same exposure/compensation, should I win multiple Masters tourneys vs Open. Period. Women vs Open Mens is just not the same. I like watching both, but don't expect the same level of performance... or compensation.

-The larger issue for female players does not rest at the feet of a MANUFACTURER, but at the LOCAL LEVEL. My wife enjoys playing tennis and, now, DG with me. She would 100% never play DG at local course solo, or just with female friends based on the overall douche ridden/stoner culture that surrounds it...none of which is Innova's fault. She honestly would not feel comfortable or safe... I just asked her. What is the % of females that are members of your local club, I wonder?

I personally was introduced to DG by a GF back in the 90s, so at least for me, women helped grow the sport! We need people like Val invested and supported. I respect her decision, but it seem like it was strategically poorly timed.

She had a bully pulpit for the women in our sport that she just tossed aside to prove a point... not sure if that is going to actually pan out the way she expected...

 

[DanJon]

Contracts for top pro disc golfers (male or female) probably go something like this:

Base pay (if that)
Entry fees
Travel for big events (big maybe)
Merchandise
Royalties from Signature/Tour Discs
Bonuses for placing at events

Notice in Paul's comment about Val and Nate, the part about making top 5.

In the FPO division, she was more likely to make top 5 at more events than Nate in MPO.

So therefore she stood to make more money through that avenue than Nate.

The Signature Disc issue is a separate thing in my mind.

 

[Emoney]

Are we sure that was really Paul making those posts tonight though? Part of me feels like his account got hacked by a prankster or something, LOL Or maybe he was just in a mood??

I think Paul's mistake is thinking that this forum is closely connected to real disc golf. Most of the top ppl that post on this site are the worst disc golfers.

He has a right to his opinions but he should share them with his friends and ppl close to the DG community. Not a online forum that dabbles in disc golf

 

[Three Putt]

I agree Corin, and I think that some other companies are starting to realize the opportunity there. Mainly DD with Paige and her new SIGNATURE convict. She's been on the team for all of a week (officially) but already has a signature disc. I also believe DD is focused on attracting as many new players to the game as possible, including women. They seem to be doing things right with their marketing and social media presence.

DD is a force to behold. They are a totally different animal so far as promotion goes from what Innova has been. They are waaayyy more aggressive than Innova is now. It will probably take a commitment from companies like them to put resources into female disc golf, with the upside that if it works they could be in the position to get more of a % of the sales to the female players. If I was running a newer disc golf company and I thought the big established companies were going to be hands off with Women's disc golf, that would be the kind of risk I'd be looking to take.

 

[corin_brown]

Is it mandatory that more females play and compete in DG though? While there are some amazing female players at the top of the game, isn't it a bit presumptuous of us to expect that it grow and have mass appeal to women? I personally think it's awesome to see new girls get into the sport (and make it up the ranks), but it seems entirely possible that it'll never grow to the extent some people seem to feel it should. I'm OK with whatever direction women's disc golf goes; it might remain a pretty small crowd, it could take another couple decades to grow much.. I almost detect some guilt on the part of guys when they feel they're somehow getting in the way of women getting into the game and staying with it.

This is an interesting post which grazes the issue at a new angle.

Personally, I'm ambivalent about most aspects about the growth of the sport. As long as the sport doesn't regress, I don't really care if it blows up or not. Having more courses would always be cool, though.

And I'm a guy, so I don't have to worry about showing up to a tournament as a woman and being outnumbered by men 120 to 4. But a little bit of me cringes when I see the numbers so lopsided. EVERY TOURNAMENT.

It doesn't matter how good everyone's intentions are or how "welcoming" the TD is, having numbers that unbalanced is a bad look and it's persistent.

I hear a lot of, "hey, man, tough luck for Val, she doesn't move the needle. Stiffing her on her sponsorship support is just good business." Again, how good is it, exactly, for business to turn off half the population from your product?

 

[corndog23]

DD is a force to behold. They are a totally different animal so far as promotion goes from what Innova has been. They are waaayyy more aggressive than Innova is now. It will probably take a commitment from companies like them to put resources into female disc golf, with the upside that if it works they could be in the position to get more of a % of the sales to the female players. If I was running a newer disc golf company and I thought the big established companies were going to be hands off with Women's disc golf, that would be the kind of risk I'd be looking to take.

I would love to see more companies take such an aggressive rout. Competition promotes growth.

 

[tomsdiscs]

I love women's soccer and think it is great entertainment, men's soccer seems like a competition to see who is the biggest baby and does the best job of flopping on the ground and whining.

I never had a jumpshot, but it never slowed me down, I am not angry because I did not get an NBA contract, I am grateful for the gifts I have and accept my limitations as they are.

I adore Val and always have, I often bump into Val at Masters Cup and her smile makes the world a better place.

But her score in Worlds last year puts her in dead last for Open (except for some Swede named Broman, and Swedes are not real people, at least according to Wikipedia).

What if all males stopped playing disc golf ?

That means no playing at all, no practice, no tournaments, no buying discs, no throwing discs, etc.

What would Val's situation look like then ?

 

[Finny]

I love women's soccer and think it is great entertainment, men's soccer seems like a competition to see who is the biggest baby and does the best job of flopping on the ground and whining.

I never had a jumpshot, but it never slowed me down, I am not angry because I did not get an NBA contract, I am grateful for the gifts I have and accept my limitations as they are.

I adore Val and always have, I often bump into Val at Masters Cup and her smile makes the world a better place.

But her score in Worlds last year puts her in dead last for Open (except for some Swede named Broman, and Swedes are not real people, at least according to Wikipedia).

What if all males stopped playing disc golf ?

That means no playing at all, no practice, no tournaments, no buying discs, no throwing discs, etc.

What would Val's situation look like then ?

This makes no sense. Not a single woman on the US National team could play for a top-10 men's college program. Yet you recognize women's soccer as legit. Why is disc golf any different?

 

[slowplastic]

I'm so happy PM is here and actually adding facts/opinions to this. Please keep coming back and also leaving before you're frustrated at intervals.

First, I agree with the "protected" bit of this to an extent...if I were playing in an age protected division I would not consider that as an equal to the open/everyone/best of the best division. But, when there are inherent reasons for there to be a protected division...it's tricky.

What it comes down to is value of the player to sales as well. Coming back to Sexton...I see him everywhere. Commentary is awesome. Tours visibly. Throws tons of a variety of shots (fun to watch). Gives in depth in the bags and Q&A. He's visible and enjoyable to watch. He makes me want to try discs he throws.

Look at Simon, look at Eagle. They are awesome to watch play, and do tons of *extra* content. They are visible. I don't necessarily want to throw all the discs they have (because I don't have a light speed canon for an arm), but I would certainly try out FD's or whatever is reasonable in their bags. Especially because they make it known with in the bags, more often.

My point is, these guys are all visible. Even if they don't have _X on their discs, they are top players and seen all the time. Koling will be another added to Innova who is entertaining on camera but also professional (and fun to watch play). I think these extra characteristics are very important.

 

[DanJon]

Contracts for top pro disc golfers (male or female) probably go something like this:

Base pay (if that)
Entry fees
Travel for big events (big maybe)
Merchandise
Royalties from Signature/Tour Discs
Bonuses for placing at events

Notice in Paul's comment about Val and Nate, the part about making top 5.

In the FPO division, she was more likely to make top 5 at more events than Nate in MPO.

So therefore she stood to make more money through that avenue than Nate.

The Signature Disc issue is a separate thing in my mind.

 

[corin_brown]

The larger issue for female players does not rest at the feet of a MANUFACTURER, but at the LOCAL LEVEL. My wife enjoys playing tennis and, now, DG with me. She would 100% never play DG at local course solo, or just with female friends based on the overall douche ridden/stoner culture that surrounds it...none of which is Innova's fault. She honestly would not feel comfortable or safe... I just asked her. What is the % of females that are members of your local club, I wonder.

Yup. 100% cosign. I've seen it first hand too. Every woman in my life thinks disc golf is gross because of the dudes who play, drink, litter, urinate, loiter, scream obscenities and hang around the course at all hours. And I almost forget the vaping! Lol.

But I wouldn't give the manufacturers a total pass either. They have an interest in the growth of the sport and to say they aren't able to affect the growth of the sport is about as foolish as saying cigarette manufacturers had no influence on the growth of the smoking market.

Doing things like pissing off a major FPO player, whether it's justified or not, LOOKS BAD TO OTHER WOMEN AND IS BAD BUSINESS.

 

[scarpfish]

I think we attract women, it's keeping them that's the problem. There have been plenty of amazing players that could the best ever...if they stilled played. Tschiggfrie, Courtney McCoy, Krystin Nowicki, Colleen Thompson, etc.

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering what these women are doing now? I would venture their reasons for pulling out aren't that different from the "life happens" circumstances involving their male counterparts.

And as far as attracting female players at the local level, I just don't see it too often. Most of the women I do see at tournaments or leagues got into the game because their significant other or another male relative introduced them to it. I would say that the environment that I see at these events isn't exactly helping the situation of keeping them or getting new ones to show up. We're not exactly the most couth bunch to be around.

 

[DanJon]

Val has been playing for over a decade. I'm pretty sure giving her the honors she's referring too, wouldn't be putting the cart before the horse.

I was replying to your comment about her theoretical ability to sell product.

Paul didn't get the lucrative contract until after his many wins and Innova noticing that he moved product.

Even before his signature discs, people were interested in what he threw and it made them go out and buy those discs.

Despite Val being a great player, can you say her endorsement of certain discs had the the same affect?

Can we keep the focus on Disc Golf.

That didn't take long.opcorn:

Deflecting much?

I think that article is valid in this specific matter.

 

[Nova P]

Doing things like pissing off a major FPO player, whether it's justified or not, LOOKS BAD TO OTHER WOMEN AND IS BAD BUSINESS.

Yes it does and yes it is.

 

[DanJon]

Juliana (and I could be wrong) to the best of my recollection got signature discs when she moved from Discraft to Innova. I think she won the first three titles as a Discraft player.

This is a great comment.

Innova offered her a signature disc to keep her on the team.

So, unfair as it may seem, Innova offered all those 1x MPO World Champs signature discs because they wanted to keep them on the team.

Partly because they knew they would help sell discs.

Also because other disc companies might try poaching them after their World's win.

On the women's side, they probably weren't as worried about losing their top players.

Party because they were already offering some form of compensation (good or bad) and didn't foresee any other companies giving them a better deal.

That and the female pros probably didn't account for a lot of disc sales compared to the guys.

 

[Mulligan]

Doing things like pissing off a major FPO player, whether it's justified or not, LOOKS BAD TO OTHER WOMEN AND IS BAD BUSINESS.

Totally agree...but if you can't get women to the point where they even realize such a thing exists because the normalized behavior locally turns them off, I'm not sure it ultimately matters in the big picture.

 

[DanJon]

Wow.

Do you think she was Innova's #1 female player?

Hey he's treating her as an equal in my mind with his comment.

Did you forget about Climo, Barry, etc?