What's the ruling.....

[BillFleming]

If you are up against a solid object such as a tree?

I have seen players put a mini marker vertically against a tree so it was between the tree and the disc. Why? In most cases they wanted to throw the same disc and you can't just replace the disc on the ground with another one.

There is rarely a case where you can't use a mini marker....but my reading of the rules is that you aren't guaranteed to be able to use one and that's what I'm thinking would apply in the on-going question.

The player has a legal lie/stance behind the disc. While they would like to use a mini marker to their advantage, the use of the mini marker is an option, not a guarantee. So, they have to take the stance behind the disc.

But, IMO, the on-going questions really are -
1) are the two surfaces (ground and ledge) two different playing surfaces? (A tree isn't a playing surface - so the 2 meter rule makes sense there or take a lie beneath the disc).
2) can you mark your lie and take a stance on a different playing surface if part of the disc overhangs a different playing surface?

 

[txmxer]

803.02.B- "If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface, the player may mark a new lie immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play."

Mark moves slightly but no prohibition on marking.

If the order is basket—->tree—>disc, are you saying that the mini marker can be placed further away on the LOP?


I think Aray's post addresses it thoroughly, but I want to understand your point.

 

[biscoe]

How am I misreading "on"? That's the word both the OP and YOU use in the description (as you did above). With 805.01 A, this is very clear.

I know some people like to either "skip over" this fact or "move past it" to the "marking issue;" however, first things must come first. It's ON. Not in a bush, brush or tree suspended above a playing surface. It's ON. Its position (by 805.01 A), and anything sensible says it is ON the playing surface.

What you are misreading is the part where the front of the disc is out over air, not over the playing surface as you suggest. The playing surface pertinent to actually marking the disc is the one below its forward-most point. There is no prohibition to marking the disc to be found anywhere in the rules so I ask you again- where would you place your mini in regard to this disc? (I am not arguing there are stacked playing surfaces, there is only one playing surface on which a mini could be placed.)

"May" means "allowed to" given that the player so chooses. There is nowhere in the rules stating that this choice is ever disallowed. There are 2 possible lies from the OP- one at the rear of the disc on the upper piece of ground and one at the front of the disc on the lower piece of ground.

 

[BillFleming]

The rules state the option exists. They do not state anywhere that said option ceases to exist under certain circumstances. Therefore it exists across the board. Period.

True. But it is an 'option' to using the disc as the lie. An option is not a requirement. If an optional choice isn't available you have to go with the primary choice; in this case, the stance behind the disc.

 

[biscoe]

If the order is basket—->tree—>disc, are you saying that the mini marker can be placed further away on the LOP?


I think Aray's post addresses it thoroughly, but I want to understand your point.

The text of the rule clearly says "the player may mark a new lie immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play"- my point in this regard is still that there is no circumstance where the player has no option to mark the disc.

 

[biscoe]

True. But it is an 'option' to using the disc as the lie. An option is not a requirement. If an optional choice isn't available you have to go with the primary choice; in this case, the stance behind the disc.

The optional choice IS available- on the playing surface below the front of the disc. I am not saying this is a well written rule or that it is a sensible one. I am saying that the text of the rules allow for this particular disc to be marked on the lower piece of ground.

 

[BillFleming]

I'm finding this conversation really interesting and I hope a definite answer shows up.

If I was the TD, the best thing to do would have been to declare the ledges around the basket to not be a playing surface due to safety reasons. Mark your lie on the ground beneath the disc and play from there. The same as the disc being in a tree and there being no 2 meter rule.

 

[Cgkdisc]

ARAYTX and others: The disc's position in space is not yet the lie. The disc may or may not be resting on a playing surface. If it's ON a playing surface, your disc can mark the lie behind it by default. Or you may mark on the playing surface below the front edge unless another option presented.

Consider that the rule was changed in 2002 to provide two options for marking the lie: (1) for player to play from a more favorable lie and (2) speed of play. Taking away the mini marking option is antithetical to the intent behind this rule change and the general concept of benefit to the player. We agree the wording could be improved but there's enough rule play to allow player to mark on another playing surface below the leading edge of the disc if it's not on the playing surface most of the disc is on.

 

[txmxer]

I have seen players put a mini marker vertically against a tree so it was between the tree and the disc. Why? In most cases they wanted to throw the same disc and you can't just replace the disc on the ground with another one.

There is rarely a case where you can't use a mini marker....but my reading of the rules is that you aren't guaranteed to be able to use one and that's what I'm thinking would apply in the on-going question.

The player has a legal lie/stance behind the disc. While they would like to use a mini marker to their advantage, the use of the mini marker is an option, not a guarantee. So, they have to take the stance behind the disc.

But, IMO, the on-going questions really are -
1) are the two surfaces (ground and ledge) two different playing surfaces? (A tree isn't a playing surface - so the 2 meter rule makes sense there or take a lie beneath the disc).
2) can you mark your lie and take a stance on a different playing surface if part of the disc overhangs a different playing surface?

I think your point about the mini being an option but not a guarantee is relevant.

 

[txmxer]

The text of the rule clearly says "the player may mark a new lie immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play"- my point in this regard is still that there is no circumstance where the player has no option to mark the disc.

Not to be a d**k, but I think that's a misreading of the rule.

If it's basket—->disc—->tree and you can't take a legal stance due to the tree, you can place the marker behind the tree on the LOP.

If the tree is between disc and basket and you can take a legal stance you don't get to choose to move back away from the tree without penalty do you?

 

[biscoe]

Not to be a d**k, but I think that's a misreading of the rule.

If it's basket—->disc—->tree and you can't take a legal stance due to the tree, you can place the marker behind the tree on the LOP.

If the tree is between disc and basket and you can take a legal stance you don't get to choose to move back away from the tree without penalty do you?

You have the same choice you always have between 2 possible lies- one marked by the disc itself and one marked at the player's option with a mini. In that particular case the 2 would be a bit closer together than usual as the mini would be behind the front of the disc rather than in front. The rule says nothing about whether the location of the solid obstacle is in front of or behind the disc, simply that it exists. Again, I am not saying it is well written or sensible- I know full well the intent of the rule is in relation to an obstacle behind the disc but the text is the text.

 

[txmxer]

You have the same choice you always have between 2 possible lies- one marked by the disc itself and one marked at the player's option with a mini. In that particular case the 2 would be a bit closer together than usual as the mini would be behind the front of the disc rather than in front. The rule says nothing about whether the location of the solid obstacle is in front of or behind the disc, simply that it exists. Again, I am not saying it is well written or sensible- I know full well the intent of the rule is in relation to an obstacle behind the disc but the text is the text.

The full text says "obstacles on or behind the lie"

 

[biscoe]

The full text says "obstacles on or behind the lie"

No it does not. That is in 803.02.A specifically referencing "motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. "

803.02.B references large solid obstacles with no such limitations.

Either way neither rule limits you from marking your lie.

 

[peabody]

ARAYTX and others: The disc's position in space is not yet the lie. The disc may or may not be resting on a playing surface. If it's ON a playing surface, your disc can mark the lie behind it by default. Or you may mark on the playing surface below the front edge unless another option presented.

Consider that the rule was changed in 2002 to provide two options for marking the lie: (1) for player to play from a more favorable lie and (2) speed of play. Taking away the mini marking option is antithetical to the intent behind this rule change and the general concept of benefit to the player. We agree the wording could be improved but there's enough rule play to allow player to mark on another playing surface below the leading edge of the disc if it's not on the playing surface most of the disc is on.

What if the disc was completely on the surface of the upper playing surface but no room for the mini?

 

[Rastnav]

People saying the word "may" indicates something about an uncertain future outcome are using the incorrect sense of the word "may".

The word "may", in rules, indicates that one is allowed to do something. It's the classic teacher correction about the difference between "can" and "may". The student asks if the can go to the bathroom and the teacher corrects them, saying the proper question is "May I go to the bathroom?"

 

[Cgkdisc]

What if the disc was completely on the surface of the upper playing surface but no room for the mini?

No problem. When you have an either/or situation, only one has to work for the rule to work. It's similar to when a disc is flat on the playing surface but touching a 6' high fence behind it. You likely mark with a mini and get your foot in that 21cm space versus go behind the fence using the solid object relief rule since you can't even have/play a lie behind the thrown disc.

 

[coupe]

And that's my point. Anyone claiming he cannot "stand' there is making an invalid point. The stance may or may not include "standing." I've yet to see an example (maybe there is one but it'll be rarer that these rare ones on this thread) where the player cannot take a legal stance according to the rules and throw from the lie on the same playing surface (level) as the thrown disc. I'll even make a video for you, if you'll make one of where the disc you want me the throw from is.

Whether or not a player can take a legal stance on the playing surface on the same level as the thrown disc is irrelevant. 802.06 explicitly permits a player to mark the lie of ANY thrown disc that has established a position on the in-bounds playing surface with a mini and play from there. Where in 802.06 does it prohibit a player from exercising that option or require said player to play from the lie established by the thrown disc?

 

[txmxer]

No it does not. That is in 803.02.A specifically referencing "motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. "

803.02.B references large solid obstacles with no such limitations.

Either way neither rule limits you from marking your lie.

You aren't using the whole text of the article.

803.02.B. If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface, the player may mark a new lie

immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play

So, if your disc is up against a tree, there is no allowance to place the marker BEHIND the thrown disc (unless you cannot take a legal stance) You MAY place it IMMEDIATELY behind the obstacle in the LOP. NOT behind your disc. Partial quotes lead to incorrect answers.

I take that to allow you to Mark the lie so you can throw the same disc should you choose to.

 

[peabody]

Can this situation be reversed?
Let's say the pin was on upper surface and your disc landed under an overhang.
Directly above your disc 50 feet up is the playing surface. CGK ,according to your interpretation of the rule I should be able to place my mini on the ledge above no matter how many feet up?
There is a pin placement here in Kentucky on top of a monolith where discs touching or slightly under minor overhangs around this big rock are common subject to this interpretation. I can imagine my cardmates reaction when I climb on top and place my mini on the surface next to the pin.

 

[txmxer]

Can this situation be reversed?
Let's say the pin was on upper surface and your disc landed under an overhang.
Directly above your disc 50 feet up is the playing surface. CGK ,according to your interpretation of the rule I should be able to place my mini on the ledge above no matter how many feet up?
There is a pin placement here in Kentucky on top of a monolith where discs touching or slightly under minor overhangs around this big rock are common subject to this interpretation. I can imagine my cardmates reaction when I climb on top and place my mini on the surface next to the pin.

How would you take a legal stance behind your marker ?