Pay to Play? Is it Okay?

[denny ritner]

And as far as the "if you don't want to pay then don't play those courses" argument... come on really? That's like the old tired "if you don't like this country you can get out" argument. Of course I want to play those courses too. And if I have to pay I probably will. But that doesn't change the fact that all of this is escalating to a point where there will be no more free courses worth playing. I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to do what I can to save the game I love.

really? that makes no sense. that's like saying that if you build more $275 per round golf courses like pebble beach, then all the $30 per round courses will suddenly be cheapgolfcourserapturefied.

pay to play is better. if you like the same old stale crackers, i'm not going to stop you from eating them, but you're not going to get mileage of the argument that it's not worth the $1 for a box of fresh crackers.

 

[lavon_andy]

pay to play courses will not replace f2p courses entirely

as the sport evolves and more professionals emerge there will be more professionals playing professional level courses that happen to be p2p

The key differences will be that f2p courses are designed as lower cost park spaces for local municipalities where unrestricted access and safety are the main concerns (especially if there's local DG clubs that plan on supporting said course like there are in my area) and p2p courses will be more geared to professional level disc golfers who are willing to pay for harder less crowded courses.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Public p2p had better cater more to amateur and rec players to be successful. Even private p2p courses better primarily cater to amateur players to be profitable. Pros have insignificant numbers in the marketplace to support a p2p. But private p2p facilities will more likely want to provide and tout a pro level set of tees as a drawing card for some ams in addition to pros.

 

[scarpfish]

My worry is that pay to play courses will become so prevalent that in 20 years, any course worth playing will cost $10 a round plus.

Factor in inflation and by 2030, $10 by then will probably be a lot less than what $5 is today.

At that point for me the sport is ruined.

Oh well.

It's not always about playing the fanciest best maintained courses. Sometimes you just want to play. Some people will certainly disagree with me for this, but I golf for fun.

So do 98% of the people here, myself included.

If I have to wait a few minutes for some newer players in front of me to finish, I don't care. If the grass on the fairways is shin-high, it's fine with me.

Have you considered that those things aren't fine with everyone, therefore that conundrum creates a marketplace for courses for players who are willing to pay not to deal with them, all while leaving more free course space for you?

Winning and keeping score can be fun, but they are certainly not at the top of my priority list. Having a well manicured course is awesome, but is it worth the risk of losing something that truly made this sport different?

Absolutely. The whole courses are free thing is a quirk of the sport being so obscure that there wasn't enough of a market to charge for it. The times they are a changing.

My personal golf goal is to play as many courses worldwide as possible. But if I end up spending my life savings just because some golfers don't want to play with inexperienced people on the course, well that sucks.

Hmm, that sounds more like a personal choice that one doesn't have to make. Might as well suggest that we let you have free gas getting to all those courses while you're at it.

And as far as the "if you don't want to pay then don't play those courses" argument... come on really? That's like the old tired "if you don't like this country you can get out" argument.

No it isn't because if you don't want to pay, you're still welcome in about 86% of our "country", and while pay courses are likely to become more prevalent, I doubt they're ever going to replace most of the existing free ones.

Of course I want to play those courses too. And if I have to pay I probably will. But that doesn't change the fact that all of this is escalating to a point where there will be no more free courses worth playing.

Once you start paying and see the other side of the coin, I think you'll get over that.

I'm not really complaining,

Sure as hell sounds like it.

I'm just trying to do what I can to save the game I love.

My advice would be to quit acting like an entitlement oriented douche who thinks that free disc golf is a birthright.

 

[1978]

Good news. If you design or build a course, I bet you wont ever have to pay there.

Disc golf is unique, you can take 3 travelers to a park and make a really good safari course...you will never, not be able to "play" if money is an issue.

 

[DavidSauls]

@jpass21

Pay-to-play is no threat to free disc golf. Free disc golf will continue and flourish for the foreseeable future.

You seem to be missing the point on the pay-to-play courses. For the ones I've played and know about, it's not a case of a choice between (1) pay to play or (2) free.

It's a choice between (1) pay to play or (2) no course.

Either way, you'll never get the chance to play "those courses" for free.

 

[Craig639]

Factor in inflation and by 2030, $10 by then will probably be a lot less than what $5 is today.


Oh well.



So do 98% of the people here, myself included.


Have you considered that those things aren't fine with everyone, therefore that conundrum creates a marketplace for courses for players who are willing to pay not to deal with them, all while leaving more free course space for you?


Absolutely. The whole courses are free thing is a quirk of the sport being so obscure that there wasn't enough of a market to charge for it. The times they are a changing.


Hmm, that sounds more like a personal choice that one doesn't have to make. Might as well suggest that we let you have free gas getting to all those courses while you're at it.


No it isn't because if you don't want to pay, you're still welcome in about 86% of our "country", and while pay courses are likely to become more prevalent, I doubt they're ever going to replace most of the existing free ones.


Once you start paying and see the other side of the coin, I think you'll get over that.


Sure as hell sounds like it.


My advice would be to quit acting like an entitlement oriented douche who thinks that free disc golf is a birthright.

^^^^ Good stuff here scarpfish!!!

jpass21, are you for real? 12 years old? Just a n00b who knows nothing about nothing? Troll? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[njdevilsphan]

I don't mind pay to play courses at all. Actually like them better. People who pay to play are more serious about the sport. They are not going to pay to drink a 30 of pbr leave all their cans all over the place, smash tee signs, tag benches. You don't have to deal with people like that at a pay to play course. They are building a pay to play course right across the street from a great free course by me right now. $5 a round is nothing I actually hope you can by a membership for the whole year but who knows. When the free course is packed with high school kinds slowing down play not letting you play thru, leaving garbage, smashing stuff writing all over things. I can say well lets just go over there and not have to deal with all that. Pay to play courses are usually better kept because people care more about something they pay for.

 

[Steve West]

Disc golf isn't necessarily "moving toward" pay-to-play. The increase in pay-to-play courses can be explained by simple expansion of the number of courses available.

As the number of courses increases, the extremes of the types of courses available will be pushed to new levels.

Pay-to-play courses are out on the tail of the distribution, and now that tail is swelling up with more courses. This could be simply because the universe of courses is larger, not because of any change in the mix of courses being built.

You may hear more about new pay-to-play courses, because they are typically bigger and higher rated. However, the bulk of new courses are (and perhaps always will be) the typical free 9- or 18-hole courses.

Someday soon, indoor courses will become a reality. Then you will hear a lot about all the new indoor courses, and there will be a debate about whether they are good for disc golf, and whether we should be concerned about the loss of outdoor disc golf.

 

[scarpfish]

278 U.S. courses in the directory with a 2011 install date. 237 of them are free to play. 93 of the free courses have at least 18 holes. 53 of the free courses have a rating of 3.0 or higher with at least three reviews.

There's plenty of brand new opportunities to play free disc golf on a decent layout. Any notion that its being taken away because pay courses exist is just ludicrous.

 

[Steve West]

It seems like that other kind of golf is recognizing the important of free courses.

From an article about Jack Nicklaus in the The Herald of Monterey County:

"Among the initiatives of the Golf 2.0 program, Nicklaus said, would be to create golf parks, a la current public parks..."

 

[Cygnus]

If it gives more incentive for more courses to go up I'm all for pay to play. I mostly play at state Parks So I'm paying anyway. Not a huge deal still cheaper than most outdoor activities.

 

[[email protected]]

We should set aside 15 to 25 acres of public land for the exclusive use of DG'ers, and then spend 20 large of our (tax payers) money for a small % of the pop to play DG FOR FREE??? PP get your head out of your ars. This sport should cost $, just like public ball golf courses. If you don't like it don't play, no one is forcing you.

This sport takes mucho land and mucho resources, and this public land should be set aside exclusively for DG. This is so we can get rid of the story of the mom walking kid in stroller that gets opened up by a 174g razor sharp driver that is in stable condition in the local hospital because some DB DG'er who decided to spikehyzer over her head and does not have the skills. Guys - anything worthwhile costs $$, get over it, this is the way of the world, and the way DG is headed.

Everyone seems to have the $ to show up at the local FREE course with the latest new $120 DG bag, the latest new discs at $17 each, a Qdoba bag lunch, a 6 pack of microbrew, a pack of smokes, and an ounce of MJ, while talking about the concert/movie/game/etc they are going to go to tonight, but GOD forbid we (tax-payers) ask them to pay a few of those dollars they supposedly don't have, on the upkeep of a huge plot of Our (tax-payers) land. Try to go and find something else you can do for free on 25 acres of someones land, that they have spent countless hours, and 20 thousand dollars creating this "something" for you to do. Please let me know how that works out for you. Get real PP :doh:.

 

[thrembo]

Hell Yes! As long as the fees are reasonable, and the courses are nice, and well maintained I am all for it. We need more private courses. Could you imagine a course with no hikers, bikers, runners, soccer games, picnickers, Lovers, idiots, vandals, etc. on it?

 

[Bikinimower]

So sad

This thread and some of the responses depresses me. I can definitely see good points being made on both sides but here is why I love Disc Golf and why I'm fine with it staying the size it is now.

It's Soapbox time

First off I love nature, I love being out in the open air, and I love hiking. I was 320 pounds a few years ago and needed to get in better shape. I have knee problems so hardcore exercise wasn't an option. I work with people who have mental disability's and I am encouraged to get them out into the community and active. I love road trips, I love meeting new people and I'm not rich. Disc Golf of course combines all these things so it was the perfect answer.

Disc Golf seems to divided into 2 groups of people
1. The Hippy types, these guys just love nature, it's almost spiritual for them. Not really looking to make it any more than an activity to do with friends and pot. A lot of people here think they give our sport a bad name, they may be right but if you take the time to get to know them and don't judge, the usually turn out to be pretty friendly and interesting people
2. Competitive people that are always looking to improve. They are very interested in making the sport bigger and more mainstream, and they take it very seriously.
3. Your Casual players who just want to go out with some friends on a nice day and play a round every once in a while.

I fall somewhere between 1 and 2. I know that seems like a strange combination considering that the 2 sides normally hate each other. But I play a ton of Disc Golf and I'm always trying to get better. At the same time I try to keep the game in perspective and try to remember what makes it great.

If someone owns a course I realize that it's expensive, mowing and maintaining aren't free and I have no problem paying. Not every course should be free. Flip City is a perfect example. A lot of work goes into that place and it's such a pleasure to play it. Giving the man 10-20 bucks is doing a favor to the entire sport of Dis Golf.

On the flip side I live in fear of the day that I have to pay $15 to play at a course sponsored by Nike. I don't want dress codes, I don't want tee times, and I don't want course pros.

A big part of the appeal of Disc Golf to me is getting out into nature, climbing over logs and breathing fresh air. I have never had a problem with other Disc Golfers on the course or waiting for my turn to throw. I've dropped about 50 pounds plying and my bosses love me for keeping my residents happy.

It doesn't need to get bigger, it's perfect the way it is right now.

 

[discdoh]

There is also the other side of the coin like we have here in St Louis. The club pays for all of the baskets, signs, teepads, upkeep, improvements, repairs, and everything other than the land and mowing. In this situation it would be impossible for the parks to charge us to play. We have already paid for the right to play x10. They can always ask us to leave, but in order for them to charge us to play they would need to have some kind of deal set up with the club, and that isn't going to happen.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You make it sound like everyone who plays disc golf has contributed money and time to install those STL courses. Maybe 1 in 500 players has done so. It would make sense to have some of your courses go to pay-to-play with revenue shared with the club to cover those expenses and have free passes for club volunteers.

 

[scarpfish]

On the flip side I live in fear of the day that I have to pay $15 to play at a course sponsored by Nike. I don't want dress codes, I don't want tee times, and I don't want course pros.

I don't really understand why so many people talk in a manner that if such an option of play merely existed, that they would be required to use it. I can assure people that many of our existing courses are never going to have fees period, much less fees like what you describe.

It doesn't need to get bigger, it's perfect the way it is right now.

I'm sure the day before the day you threw your first round, someone said the very same thing. And then you came along and made it bigger. See the problem?

 

[discdoh]

You make it sound like everyone who plays disc golf has contributed money and time to install those STL courses. Maybe 1 in 500 players has done so. It would make sense to have some of your courses go to pay-to-play with revenue shared with the club to cover those expenses and have free passes for club volunteers.

That has been brought up recently due to the STL County Council threatening to close some parks (not necessarily DG parks, but some were involved). There was no need to continue forward, however, because it was merely an idle threat to soften the blow for a tax increase. Profit sharing with the club would be a great idea, but I am not sure I see the powers that be letting that happen.

1 in 500 might be a bit of a stretch in STL due to the fact that we had 540 members sign up last year (that would be 270,000 DGers with your math), but I understand what you mean. The main problem with P2P here is that all but one of our county courses are general access parks...there are no gates and multiple access points. Trying to enforce P2P would pretty much necessitate a full time job, with a "marshall" stationed at the 1st tee. There are other options too (cash box, window stickers, mirror hanger, etc), but this would require the overworked/understaffed parks people to spend even more time policing an area that they can't afford to.

With that said, I am not against P2P. I have played bolf longer than DG and understand the benefits of various levels of greens fees. Generally speaking, the more the greens fees are the nicer the course. I would not mind seeing this cross over to DG in my area. I am more than willing to fork over $5-10 to play a meticulously maintained facility. Just don't make me rent a cart (like an increasing number of bolf courses do)...I'll go play bolf with my Dad if I want to cut the walking out.

 

[mashnut]

I don't really understand why so many people talk in a manner that if such an option of play merely existed, that they would be required to use it. I can assure people that many of our existing courses are never going to have fees period, much less fees like what you describe.

A lot of people seem to miss this point, even if pay to play courses grow at double the rate of free courses there will still be far more free places to play than courses with a fee.