Disc Golf Rule Nazi Stories

[JC17393]

Media is speaking to recorded events. Live TV is "live" spectator-ship

Don't worry, that rule should be going away soon anyways, have a feeling.

Thing is, when ball golf viewers call in violations, they don't just take the caller's word for it, they review the recorded video. So we're back to square one unless you want to have rulings made on the word of an anonymous home viewer.

And I can't envision the rule going away anytime soon. For video evidence to be allowed, every player/group on the course at any given event would have to have every throw they make videographed or photographed for use as potential evidence. Otherwise those that have the cameras pointed at them are at an unfair disadvantage (or advantage depending on the calls involved) compared to those without cameras.

Maybe an exception can be made for still photos of discs in questionable positions (i.e. is it in bounds or out of bounds). But it would have to be very specific instances allowed by rule rather than everything being allowed.

 

[randyson]

When I first started playing, we did not have any "Rules". The game sure was fun.

 

[John Rock]

When I first started playing, we did not have any "Rules". The game sure was fun.

That's called "frolf" : Free-for-all Disc Golf

 

[WhiteyBear]

Thing is, when ball golf viewers call in violations, they don't just take the caller's word for it, they review the recorded video. So we're back to square one unless you want to have rulings made on the word of an anonymous home viewer.

And I can't envision the rule going away anytime soon. For video evidence to be allowed, every player/group on the course at any given event would have to have every throw they make videographed or photographed for use as potential evidence. Otherwise those that have the cameras pointed at them are at an unfair disadvantage (or advantage depending on the calls involved) compared to those without cameras.

Maybe an exception can be made for still photos of discs in questionable positions (i.e. is it in bounds or out of bounds). But it would have to be very specific instances allowed by rule rather than everything being allowed.

Well yeah....obviously. But the point is that anyone can call it in, they don't have to be in your group.

Chuck Kennedy hints that he wants this gone asap.

Disadvantage to what? Being called on the rules? Its not like every player is going to have a camera on them on every hole, not even golf does that. There are stationary cameras, field cameras, and a blimp. Field cameras follow the hottest players/big names. The director, ultimately, shows what it on live tv. Everything else that is recorded can be added for a "this just happened a few minutes ago" flashback.

There is nothing wrong with adding media into the rules, it's a positive thing. Heck even DD TD's said last year, at AM Worlds, that you could use pictures/videos at Municipal to help aid an OB call. I went to the TD and showed them in the rule book where this was illegal (they stated you could use this as you prepared to tee off, not an official pre-round/players meeting item). This was the only course I heard this particular situation.

I say bring it on.

 

[JC17393]

Disadvantage to what? Being called on the rules? Its not like every player is going to have a camera on them on every hole, not even golf does that. There are stationary cameras, field cameras, and a blimp. Field cameras follow the hottest players/big names. The director, ultimately, shows what it on live tv. Everything else that is recorded can be added for a "this just happened a few minutes ago" flashback.

Disadvantage to those that have the cameras on their round. Yes, they may get called more closely on the rules, but the groups that don't have the cameras...they aren't. So potentially other groups are "getting away" with violations that are missed by their groupmates while the camera group has a whole lot more sets of eyes to watch for the violation(s) that might be missed by the group.

The same argument exists in ball golf. There are some that argue against the idea of viewers being able to call in because not every shot is televised. That's the key part too...while every shot might be filmed, only the ones that make the cut on TV are going to be subject to viewer calls. So if you're Tiger Woods, every shot you make is televised. If you're Joe Schmoe, the only time you'll get on TV is if you make an impressive shot. So Tiger gets a two-stroke penalty called in by a viewer who sees him drop illegally, but Joe Schmoe makes the exact same drop and "gets away" with it because it's never televised.

I'm not trying to argue that players should be getting away with things, but unless all players are under equal amounts of scrutiny (i.e. everyone gets every shot "televised"), video evidence isn't likely to be allowed within our rule book.

 

[Cgkdisc]

JC, afraid you're wrong on what will likely happen despite the merit of your argument. That logic got us where we are now without media evidence being allowed despite the fact that the RC seemed unanimous in support, just not that Board. The weakness with your argument is similar to the weakness in our current rules calls which rely on consistent observation by humans for rules infractions and actually calling them. Allowing random media evidence may be randomly available but in essence patches some of the lack of calling infractions that already occurs including the randomness of whether a spectator or spotter is observing a hole for a full round. Allowing media evidence is still not ideal, just better.

The only area where I don't expect media evidence to be allowed as I've mentioned before is for timed calls such as foot faults and stance violations or 30 seconds to throw or even 3 minutes for lost disc search.

 

[threej21]

Legitimate question from a situation this weekend.

final round finishes and all cards are turned in. a friend in a lower division unknowingly turns in his card with an incorrect score for himself, and actually worse by one stroke than what he actually played, so no benefit there whatsoever.
Without him saying anything, his cardmates somehow realize the mistake, correct the score, and assess him a 2 stroke penalty for the changed score.
Is that right?

If a card turned in is a card turned in, is he not allotted the option to leave the score as is (which is already 1 stoke higher than he shot) instead of changing it resulting in it being 2 strokes higher than he shot?

Also, is it okay that the card mates changed his score vs. him changing his score?


Honestly, I don't know the full details of what transpired. All I know is I asked him how he shot the last round and he said "better than my scorecard shows". I asked what he meant and he told me about the 2 stroke penalty for the changed scorecard. Which I replied by asking why he didn't just leave it as is since it was already a stroke worse than actual. His response was, " I don't know, the other card mates changed it"

 

[ScottyLove]

Legitimate question from a situation this weekend.

final round finishes and all cards are turned in. a friend in a lower division unknowingly turns in his card with an incorrect score for himself, and actually worse by one stroke than what he actually played, so no benefit there whatsoever.
Without him saying anything, his cardmates somehow realize the mistake, correct the score, and assess him a 2 stroke penalty for the changed score.
Is that right?

If a card turned in is a card turned in, is he not allotted the option to leave the score as is (which is already 1 stoke higher than he shot) instead of changing it resulting in it being 2 strokes higher than he shot?

Also, is it okay that the card mates changed his score vs. him changing his score?


Honestly, I don't know the full details of what transpired. All I know is I asked him how he shot the last round and he said "better than my scorecard shows". I asked what he meant and he told me about the 2 stroke penalty for the changed scorecard. Which I replied by asking why he didn't just leave it as is since it was already a stroke worse than actual. His response was, " I don't know, the other card mates changed it"

The end result is correct although I would've expect the TD to asses the penalty. The card was turned in, so I don't see how a card mate could get the card and assess the penalty. Once turned in, nobody but the TD and helpers should have access to the cards.

As for the penalty itself, a 2-stroke penalty is added to the ACTUAL score. This happens in almost every tournament I see. Double and triple check before allowing the card to be turned in.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Incorrect score gets the 2-shot penalty added to the correct score even if the incorrect score on the card is 1, 2, 3 or more shots above the correct score. However, only the TD or score checking official can apply that penalty after the cards are turned in. Players checking other players' scores before the card(s) are turned in or asking to take a card back to re-check it before the TD or official gets around to check it cannot apply a penalty, just correct the scores if necessary.

 

[JC17393]

Legitimate question from a situation this weekend.

final round finishes and all cards are turned in. a friend in a lower division unknowingly turns in his card with an incorrect score for himself, and actually worse by one stroke than what he actually played, so no benefit there whatsoever.
Without him saying anything, his cardmates somehow realize the mistake, correct the score, and assess him a 2 stroke penalty for the changed score.
Is that right?

If a card turned in is a card turned in, is he not allotted the option to leave the score as is (which is already 1 stoke higher than he shot) instead of changing it resulting in it being 2 strokes higher than he shot?

Also, is it okay that the card mates changed his score vs. him changing his score?


Honestly, I don't know the full details of what transpired. All I know is I asked him how he shot the last round and he said "better than my scorecard shows". I asked what he meant and he told me about the 2 stroke penalty for the changed scorecard. Which I replied by asking why he didn't just leave it as is since it was already a stroke worse than actual. His response was, " I don't know, the other card mates changed it"

Players CAN'T assess the two-throw penalty for an incorrect scorecard. Primarily because it isn't incorrect until it's turned in. Once it's turned in, the only person who can change it is the TD (or his scoring staff).

So if the player added his score incorrectly and his cardmates corrected it for him before it was turned in, then it should have been left as the corrected score, no penalty. But if it was turned in to the TD with the incorrect score, then correcting it and adding the two-throw penalty was correct...but it should have been done by the TD/staff, not the players.

And for clarity, an incorrect score is an incorrect score whether it is incorrect to the player's benefit (lower than it should be) or not (higher than it should be). The procedure is to correct it and penalize it no matter what. Very occasionally, if a player's math is bad enough, the corrected score plus penalty could actually end up better than the turned in score.

 

[threej21]

I gotcha, and maybe it was in fact the TD and his helpers that caught the error while checking all the math, again I do not know exactly how it happened, just how it was told to me above. And yes the stokes added were done correctly. Shot a 50, turned in a 51, and was officially a 52 after the penalty.

I guess the main thing I was wondering is whether or not the score could've stayed as written. Since the mistake didn't improve his score, and actually was one stroke worse, do you have the option to leave the card as turned in?

 

[JC17393]

I gotcha, and maybe it was in fact the TD and his helpers that caught the error while checking all the math, again I do not know exactly how it happened, just how it was told to me above. And yes the stokes added were done correctly. Shot a 50, turned in a 51, and was officially a 52 after the penalty.

I guess the main thing I was wondering is whether or not the score could've stayed as written. Since the mistake didn't improve his score, and actually was one stroke worse, do you have the option to leave the card as turned in?

Already answered...

Incorrect score gets the 2-shot penalty added to the correct score even if the incorrect score on the card is 1, 2, 3 or more shots above the correct score.

And for clarity, an incorrect score is an incorrect score whether it is incorrect to the player's benefit (lower than it should be) or not (higher than it should be). The procedure is to correct it and penalize it no matter what. Very occasionally, if a player's math is bad enough, the corrected score plus penalty could actually end up better than the turned in score.

Also, Rule 805.02 H

 

[threej21]

yea, I guess I hadn't refreshed! thanks for the replies. I will get with him at next dubs night and ask how it actually went down, just for future reference.

thanks for the replies

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not sure what that would accomplish other than hoping no official caught the error? The score cannot stand if caught, even if it's higher than the correct score. BTW, scoring errors can be corrected anytime until the event is over so even if they missed it for posting the score that round, it could have been corrected with the penalty up until the event was over.

 

[threej21]

Not 'hoping' for anything. But in the case that the cardmates found the error before turning it in, or asked for it back to check before the TD checked; then I would want to inform them that in that case it should not have been penalized. Not sure the 2 strokes even changed his placing, so curious more as a learning tool than anything else.

 

[ScottyLove]

Not 'hoping' for anything. But in the case that the cardmates found the error before turning it in, or asked for it back to check before the TD checked; then I would want to inform them that in that case it should not have been penalized. Not sure the 2 strokes even changed his placing, so curious more as a learning tool than anything else.

Correct... if your cardmates applied the penalty, then you can and should be upset with them. Can't change it now, but it's a learning experience I guess. Lesson here is there is only one person accountable for your score and that person you see in the mirror every morning.

You're in the same club as Will Schusterick now! He didn't add his up incorrectly, but rather failed to write in the total... and guess what? 2 strokes added to score and playoff at one of the biggest events on the tour. Luckily, he won the playoff.

 

[threej21]

Thanks for the replies, but FYI it wasn't me that was penalilzed. It was a friend in a lower division. Im WAY too ocd to have that happen to me, lol. I actually ended up in a headsup playoff in MA1 and bogeyed the first hole to lose and take 2nd place overall. :doh

 

[Sir Puttsalot]

Not required per se, but make it a habit to sign the scorecard.

On that note, I kind of wish this would be a clear requirement (scorecards must be signed by all players on the card; unsigned scores will not be accepted). Anyone have any idea why this isn't clearly a requirement?

 

[NOStheBOSS]

Make a habit of checking your own score after your round. Doesn't matter if you sign it or not, just make sure YOU check it. The signature or initial doesn't mean anything. The same irresponsible people will just initial their score without checking it and still get a penalty

Don't even let your best buddy be accountable, I've seen that happen and it cost the dude 2 strokes

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not required per se, but make it a habit to sign the scorecard.

On that note, I kind of wish this would be a clear requirement (scorecards must be signed by all players on the card; unsigned scores will not be accepted). Anyone have any idea why this isn't clearly a requirement?

It was a requirement at one time in the rules but was changed because it caused scoring delays, especially at lunchtime when players took off before initialing their score on the card.