How often do you 888, DNF rounds in league play?

[sidewinder22]

I wouldn't want to play in a sanctioned event with that guy, or people that allow that behavior. Losing a "favorite or go-to disc" would especially imply his rating would have suffered had he finished.

 

[JC17393]

Sounds like losing a disc would affect his rating, so he said F*** it. If the group was in a 3 threesome, they would have to split up and find new cards.

An 888 is warranted if it is confirmed that the player was trying to manipulate his rating. Speculation of what it "sounds like" or what he might have been thinking isn't confirmation of anything, thus not enough to warrant an 888.

And to the bolded, his quitting is inconvenient to those players, but it is not an offense that warrants an 888. Again, an 888 is only called for two specific instances, one of which doesn't even apply in a one-round per day/week league setting like the OP's.

 

[sidewinder22]

An 888 is warranted if it is confirmed that the player was trying to manipulate his rating. Speculation of what it "sounds like" or what he might have been thinking isn't confirmation of anything, thus not enough to warrant an 888.

Quitting is confirmation enough. There is no justification for not finishing here.

 

[sidewinder22]

I just don't feel like finishing is not an acceptable excuse. Injury or some kind of personal emergency is acceptable.

 

[JC17393]

Show me where it's written which excuses are good enough and which aren't, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's all pointless speculation. The guy gets a 999 unless there's confirming evidence that he quit to save his rating.

 

[sidewinder22]

Show me where it's written which excuses are good enough and which aren't, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's all pointless speculation. The guy gets a 999 unless there's confirming evidence that he quit to save his rating.

What more evidence do you need? He lost his go-to driver and wouldn't continue. If he lost a throw away disc, he would continue because it wouldn't affect his play.

I don't think you can just quit mid round, just because you feel like it, and not be penalized. Is that in the rules?

 

[WhiteyBear]

Show me where it's written which excuses are good enough and which aren't, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, it's all pointless speculation. The guy gets a 999 unless there's confirming evidence that he quit to save his rating.

The discussion around the 888 rule also talks about sportsmanship and conduct, and also that you need to tell the TD 15 minutes ahead of time if you arent playing the second round.

So, in your world, if there is a family emergency, and you tee in 5 minutes, screw you its an 888.

If a player is berating his card, says he refuses to continue playing because he doesn't like player XYZ, and storms off....he's getting an 888, not a 999. This has been discussed several times already.


It's called TD discretion.

 

[JC17393]

The discussion around the 888 rule also talks about sportsmanship and conduct, and also that you need to tell the TD 15 minutes ahead of time if you arent playing the second round.

So, in your world, if there is a family emergency, and you tee in 5 minutes, screw you its an 888.

If a player is berating his card, says he refuses to continue playing because he doesn't like player XYZ, and storms off....he's getting an 888, not a 999. This has been discussed several times already.


It's called TD discretion.

There is nothing written in any official documentation that the 888 code is about sportsmanship and conduct in general. I quoted it above, direct from the TD report (which incidentally, is about the only documentation describing the 888 code and its uses at all). It is to be used if a player is confirmed to have manipulated his rating during play and/or it is to be used if a player fails to notify the TD of his intent to withdraw between rounds (no time specifics either such as 15 minutes or 5 minutes...just "in advance" of subsequent rounds).

All these other things people seem to want to "punish" with an 888 are irrelevant. You know how a TD deals with players being unsportsmanlike or unprofessional? DISQUALIFICATION. There's a list of 13 examples in the Competition Manual section 3.3 B of actions that can warrant disqualification from a tournament. An 888 code only applies to #13.

Just because one doesn't agree with the reason for a player deciding to quit the round, doesn't mean it's invalid or deserving of branding with an 888.

 

[sidewinder22]

Player quits after stroke penalty. Confirmation.

 

[sidewinder22]

How do you disqualify a player that quit?

 

[JC17393]

How do you disqualify a player that quit?

It's pretty easy, actually. You report them as having been DQed rather than DNF.

I did it to two players in an event a few years back. They each quit in the middle of a round (one in the first round, one in the second...on the lead card, mind). By accounts from their group-mates during the rounds (in conversations during back-up holes), they quit because they were playing poorly. Each player even admitted after the tournament that they quit because they didn't want their ratings affected by a bad round. They were up and comers seeking the attention of a particular manufacturer well known to only recruit Open players rated 1000 or higher.

This was before the 888 code was put in place, so the idea of "punishing" players for quitting like that beyond heckling and razzing them wasn't all that well established. I probably wouldn't have bothered officially DQing them or reporting the incident to the PDGA at all except for one thing. At the end of the day, we had a CTP throw-off for the unhit ace pot and the two quitters, who never left the course, wanted to participate.

A few people, myself included, didn't like that at all. So when they tried to argue that they put their money in like everyone else so they should get their shot, I told them they were disqualified and cited #13 on the misconduct list as the reason. DQ means they forfeit the money they paid in and any prizes that they won or could have won, including the ace pot. End of story, they didn't throw for the ace.

Nothing every really came of it other than the proverbial "note in their file". Incidentally, they both eventually got picked up by their target company. One has since moved on to another company though.

 

[WhiteyBear]

There is nothing written in any official documentation that the 888 code is about sportsmanship and conduct in general. I quoted it above, direct from the TD report (which incidentally, is about the only documentation describing the 888 code and its uses at all). It is to be used if a player is confirmed to have manipulated his rating during play and/or it is to be used if a player fails to notify the TD of his intent to withdraw between rounds (no time specifics either such as 15 minutes or 5 minutes...just "in advance" of subsequent rounds).

All these other things people seem to want to "punish" with an 888 are irrelevant. You know how a TD deals with players being unsportsmanlike or unprofessional? DISQUALIFICATION. There's a list of 13 examples in the Competition Manual section 3.3 B of actions that can warrant disqualification from a tournament. An 888 code only applies to #13.

Just because one doesn't agree with the reason for a player deciding to quit the round, doesn't mean it's invalid or deserving of branding with an 888.

http://www.pdga.com/ratings-manipulation-addressed

The Statistics Committee will also be tracking DNFs, Tanking and 888 codes this coming season to determine if any further actions are necessary. The intention, of course, is not simply to punish such unsportsmanlike and unprofessional behavior, but rather to draw attention to it and eliminate it from our play

Chuck also addressed it here, specifically speaking about smoking/drinking during a sanctioned round;
http://discussion.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1470507&highlight=888#post1470507

However, the rule is essentially to cover unsportsmanlike behavior where manipulating your rating is just one aspect of that. Missing the round without notifying the TD is another aspect covered. I'd probably have no problem agreeing with the group that this egregious behavior qualified for 888 if they wished to assess it.

Chuck also talks about using 888, in sportmenship-related cases, here;
http://discussion.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1470538&highlight=888#post1470538


So, in closing, the 888 rule was primarily focused on penalizing those who wanted to "pad their rating", but is also a tool for players who do not communicate with the TD (not tell them they are leaving), and at the discretion of the TD, show poor sportsmenship and decide to leave the tourney.

Not all sportsmanship issues warrant an 888, nor do they constitute sending them the way of PDGA discipline. That is where the 888 fills the gap.

 

[jrawk]

Sounds like losing a disc would affect his rating, so he said F*** it. If the group was in a 3 threesome, they would have to split up and find new cards.

Yeah, after reading the OP i was going to say the same thing. This is absolutely ratings manipulation.

 

[scarpfish]

The fact that we're splitting hairs over the reasoning for quitting a tournament just exemplifies why I wish the PDGA had never come up with the 888 code in the first place. Someone who is quitting to protect a rating can always come up with a legit sounding excuse that no one can do much to disprove.

 

[sidewinder22]

The fact that we're splitting hairs over the reasoning for quitting a tournament just exemplifies why I wish the PDGA had never come up with the 888 code in the first place. Someone who is quitting to protect a rating can always come up with a legit sounding excuse that no one can do much to disprove.

Except in this case he didn't even bother to make up an excuse. He just said I quit in a situation that calls for a 1 stroke lost disc penalty. Why couldn't he go back after the round and find his disc?

 

[scarpfish]

Except in this case he didn't even bother to make up an excuse. He just said I quit in a situation that calls for a 1 stroke lost disc penalty. Why couldn't he go back after the round and find his disc?

And hence this leaves us to ponder whether that situation justifies an 888 or not and whether the burden of proof falls on the TD to prove guilt or the player to prove innocence.

In a world where 999 were the only option, there was no need for such consternation. You can objectively tell if a player quits. The reasoning behind why is a bit more subjective. Considering the punishment is a slap on the wrist anyway why bother with it?

 

[JC17393]

 

[sidewinder22]

And hence this leaves us to ponder whether that situation justifies an 888 or not and whether the burden of proof falls on the TD to prove guilt or the player to prove innocence.

It's pretty clear in this situation that 888 would be justified. TD rules with iron fist, this is not a court of law. The TD decided not to hand down punishment, but I don't agree with it because it sets a bad precedent for the future when people just quit mid round. "Dude, I can't finish I lost my disc."

In a world where 999 were the only option, there was no need for such consternation. You can objectively tell if a player quits. The reasoning behind why is a bit more subjective. Considering the punishment is a slap on the wrist anyway why bother with it?

True, which is why the punishment should be handed down anyways.

 

[Mocheez]

Did he find his disc? I know it doesn't matter in terms of the ruling, just curious.

 

[sidewinder22]

He should have been given par plus 4 for each of the remainder of unplayed holes.