True Added Cash

[DavidSauls]

The TD I mentored under, did. And it seems easier than answering questions later. But---our tournaments are basic payouts with no cash added, so there's not a lot to argue about.

I don't think TDs should open up their books on all their expenses, or income or sponsorships. I don't think that's the players' business. If the players get value for their entries, that should be enough. I'm only listing the pass-through fees that are deducted from the payouts.

But I agree that they should meet the promised payout, including promised cash added, the subject of this thread. It seems in the TDs' interests to demonstrate that they have done so.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'd bet it was to counter the inevitable complaints/questions about tournament finances that seem to follow every single tournament no matter how things go down. Doesn't matter how flawlessly a tournament runs and how good the payout is or how much fun is had, there always seems to be someone who desires to be the turd in the punchbowl.

I actually have a tremendous advantage over many TDs in this regard. My brother and I are running tournaments on a private course, and take the position that the course is our gift to the players. Very rarely does anyone complain under these circumstances.

Though one year we dropped the Rec entry fees to $25. By the time we took $7 in various fees, and the players pack, out, only about $8 was going to the purse, which made the payout very thin. It helped to have the formula available.

 

[JohtoVillage]

One question for you - what prompted you to post this for each tourney?

I don't think TDs should open up their books on all their expenses, or income or sponsorships. I don't think that's the players' business. If the players get value for their entries, that should be enough. I'm only listing the pass-through fees that are deducted from the payouts.

Awesome discussion. I once had someone who thought I was making a personal profit from my events and I shared financial information on the event with certain people to disprove them. The title of my tournament involves my company so I think he thought I was making money for myself. What he learned is that I don't take $1 out of any entry fees (except for PDGA fees) for ams or pros and that everything goes to the payout with my company putting in thousands of dollars.

With that in mind, I agree with the poster that TD's shouldn't need to release financial documents or TD reports to the public. I think if there's an issue with financials or a report the PDGA should handle that.

However, if someone accused me of something publicly I would probably change my mind and post the TD report and financial statements to show what was actually going on.

I would like to see a sheet that has all this on it. Do you TD's have something you could post where us non-tds can have a look at?

I keep pretty detailed excel files with all of this information but as I said above mine is a little easier because I don't actually take any money from the players. I take the opinion that if I give back to the sport in this way it will encourage other players to step as TD's and so when I am not running my tournament I can go enjoy other tournaments

 

[DavidSauls]

It shouldn't matter whether you make a profit---just whether you fulfilled your promised payout.

I'll bet that if you run a tournament at a personal loss, players won't be clamoring for the financial details and demanding that they be allowed to give you extra money so you can break even.

 

[paulw]

It shouldn't matter whether you make a profit---just whether you fulfilled your promised payout.

.

This is right. Second.

 

[JC17393]

It shouldn't matter whether you make a profit---just whether you fulfilled your promised payout.

I'll bet that if you run a tournament at a personal loss, players won't be clamoring for the financial details and demanding that they be allowed to give you extra money so you can break even.

This is right. Second.

Thirded.

It is admirable when a TD can provide a great event without taking a dime for himself (or takes a loss), but it also sets a difficult precedent for others to follow. I probably shouldn't phrase it as a future thing like that since the precedent has really already been set. Running events at a loss is an unsustainable model yet the expectation by and large continues to be for just that.

What TD hasn't faced something like JohtoVillage describes where someone accuses them of profiting from their efforts putting on an event as if to do so was a crime? Crap like that shouldn't be dignified with a response at all, especially if like DavidSauls said, the event fulfilled (or exceeded) every promise of value/payout.

 

[JohtoVillage]

What TD hasn't faced something like JohtoVillage describes where someone accuses them of profiting from their efforts putting on an event as if to do so was a crime? Crap like that shouldn't be dignified with a response at all, especially if like DavidSauls said, the event fulfilled (or exceeded) every promise of value/payout.

And what's sad is that this surely discourages most people from running events. For me it just encouraged me to make my tournament even bigger and better and this year we will be adding a minimum of $45,000 added cash to the event.

It shouldn't matter whether you make a profit---just whether you fulfilled your promised payout.

I definitely agree with this and sorry I gave off a different idea. I totally agree - if for some reason something happened and I couldn't live up to the promised payout I would write the check out of my own pocket to make up for it. I don't ever foresee that happening as I believe in having the cash on hand before announcing added cash but I suppose something could happen.

 

[JohtoVillage]

It is admirable when a TD can provide a great event without taking a dime for himself (or takes a loss), but it also sets a difficult precedent for others to follow. I probably shouldn't phrase it as a future thing like that since the precedent has really already been set. Running events at a loss is an unsustainable model yet the expectation by and large continues to be for just that.

I will offer a counter point to this: I run my tournaments at a large personal loss but I invest in the tournament through my business. So technically its a business writeoff for marketing expenses because the tournament name includes my company name. This has generated enough business for me to make it to where my loss isn't extraordinary, but I still end up putting thousands of dollars into the event. But I would encourage any business owners to run a large event and slap your company name on it. It has definitely helped me get some more business.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

The TD I mentored under, did. And it seems easier than answering questions later. But---our tournaments are basic payouts with no cash added, so there's not a lot to argue about.

I don't think TDs should open up their books on all their expenses, or income or sponsorships. I don't think that's the players' business. If the players get value for their entries, that should be enough. I'm only listing the pass-through fees that are deducted from the payouts.

I don't see anything to gain from there not being full disclosure of procurement in the entire process. With events being generally compromised of PDGA members I believe there is an ethical part to it all which should matter to all parties involved. Would it not be pretty easy to get away with some kind of commingling of the "added cash" without full disclosure?

TD's SHOULD be able to turn a profit from a tournament too and if people could SEE that it would change the idea of people thinking TD's getting rich over events if its truly taking more $ out of their pockets.

I will offer a counter point to this: I run my tournaments at a large personal loss but I invest in the tournament through my business. So technically its a business writeoff for marketing expenses because the tournament name includes my company name. This has generated enough business for me to make it to where my loss isn't extraordinary, but I still end up putting thousands of dollars into the event. But I would encourage any business owners to run a large event and slap your company name on it. It has definitely helped me get some more business.

Been a thought but feel like if that worked well disc golf would have historically retained and gained more outside sponsorship. It would be nice to have some proof of a model to present to possible sponsors to consider the logistics.

 

[geoloseth]

So then here's a question to pose. Would players in general have a problem with a TD announcing ahead of time that he is going to take a couple dollars from every entry (pro and am alike) to keep for himself as payment/profit from running a successful tournament?

I know that in the current model it's perceived that the only way a TD should/could make money is through the sale of merchandise, but I've seen a number of TDs close up shop because even that wasn't enough and they continually lost money trying to run events.

 

[JC17393]

So then here's a question to pose. Would players in general have a problem with a TD announcing ahead of time that he is going to take a couple dollars from every entry (pro and am alike) to keep for himself as payment/profit from running a successful tournament?

I know that in the current model it's perceived that the only way a TD should/could make money is through the sale of merchandise, but I've seen a number of TDs close up shop because even that wasn't enough and they continually lost money trying to run events.

I really want to say no, players wouldn't have a problem (I personally wouldn't object to any TD building in a TD fee), but unfortunately, experience tells me the actual answer is yes, they would.

People bitch about the "proper" retail valuation of player pack and payout merch. People think tournament expenses (course rental/greens fees, insurance, PDGA fees, etc) should be covered by sponsorship and/or merch profits rather than deducted off the top.

If there are that many vocal people objecting to paying for necessities (the course, sanctioning) and objecting to how much they're being "charged" for things that bring a tangible return for their money, they certainly are going to take offense at a dollar or two being taken off the top for the TD where the player's ROI for that small amount is the intangible "experience" factor.

 

[biscoe]

I disagree on this one- the 98% of players who don't want to micromanage the tournament's finances for the TD currently will be fine with the TD making a reasonable profit as long as they feel they are receiving decent value (defined differently by almost every single one of them) for their entry fee. The 2% who want to know what happened to every penny and feel the TD owes it to them to put in hours of work for nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling are going to find something to be dissatisfied with regardless.

IMO as a TD you are selling a product (tournament) to a customer base (players) and if they are receiving good value for their entry (again- value is different to absolutely everyone) they have no right to things like open books, etc. If they don't feel they are receiving value they are free to shop elsewhere.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

IMO as a TD you are selling a product (tournament) to a customer base (players) and if they are receiving good value for their entry (again- value is different to absolutely everyone) they have no right to things like open books, etc. If they don't feel they are receiving value they are free to shop elsewhere.

I only disagree in the sense that the PDGA is not a private for profit business and their sanctioning of events as well as governing the memberships makes it more of an issue IMO. Think of it as the players being shareholders vs customers in that regard and it gets cloudy. I would compare TD's more as selling a service vs product too.

Xtier/For Fun whatever events it is what it is I suppose.

 

[JC17393]

I only disagree in the sense that the PDGA is not a private for profit business and their sanctioning of events as well as governing the memberships makes it more of an issue IMO. Think of it as the players being shareholders vs customers in that regard and it gets cloudy. I would compare TD's more as selling a service vs product too.

Xtier/For Fun whatever events it is what it is I suppose.

TDs fulfill their obligation to the "shareholders" by filing their TD reports, which include a financial report, with the PDGA. I don't think a TD's obligation extends to handing over that report to any member who requests it. If a member has a grievance, they can go to the PDGA with it and, with the information provided in the TD report, the PDGA can address the grievance as necessary.

That's not to say a TD can't be forthcoming with his financials he wants. My experience is that being too upfront brings its own set of headaches. There is no perfect solution.

 

[JRW III]

I only disagree in the sense that the PDGA is not a private for profit business and their sanctioning of events as well as governing the memberships makes it more of an issue IMO. Think of it as the players being shareholders vs customers in that regard and it gets cloudy. I would compare TD's more as selling a service vs product too.

Xtier/For Fun whatever events it is what it is I suppose.

The TD is putting on the tournament, not the PDGA. The PDGA is only sanctioning it. Thus, the event is "owned" by the TD, which can be a for profit entity, and there is no right to see any financial accountability.

Second, as a non-profit, we as members have the right to see "certain" financial accountability reports and statements of the PDGA. That does not mean we need to or have a right to the details.

 

[Cgkdisc]

One problem here is the use of the term "profit" which I doubt any TD has ever produced. Many have earned some "income" above out-of-pocket expenses by not counting the fair market value of the labor expended by several people to host the event. But earning actual profit after all calculated expenses including estimated labor cost, very unlikely.

As long as the TD delivers at least the minimum expectations required for a PDGA event at that tier level plus whatever they promised beyond that to both players and sponsors, no one needs to know how much income after direct expenses they generated before accounting for labor. If they bring in extra money by whatever means they used whether sponsorship, sales, retail/wholesale differential or merch for better than normal wholesale cost, that's their business savvy/good fortune to earn that income.

We know there's a problem even with this TD financial model otherwise many Park Depts would be running tournaments by now, but very few are. There's insufficient income in this model to compensate the Park Dept to cover the labor cost for their people to run tournaments unlike several other sports events and leagues they traditionally manage. We'll know we've gotten to the right financial model when Park Depts start running DG events, at least for amateur divisions.

 

[geoloseth]

I only disagree in the sense that the PDGA is not a private for profit business and their sanctioning of events as well as governing the memberships makes it more of an issue IMO.

Xtier/For Fun whatever events it is what it is I suppose.

They might not be a for profit business, but technically neither is the NFL as an entity. In fact I remember hearing on the local ESPN radio station a while back that they aren't taxed by the government as a normal corp. would be.

I personally would love to see TDs start to make a conscious effort to provide top notch service at events in lieu of the standard money in = money out format that's been going on for so long. And I think pursuing sponsorships from outside entities is one of the best ways to do it. This gives outside businesses a chance for a new market and TDs have the opportunity to offer more amenities to the players. But like the OP, I do think that those sponsorships should go straight to the payout (unless the sponsorship is for services). And tell the players upfront how much is being taken out of entry fees to cover the costs of the event. I think bisco is right in that very few would really want to complain about it, but there will always be that 1-2% that will never be completely happy (which is why the customer is never ALWAYS right).

 

[geoloseth]

We'll know we've gotten to the right financial model when Park Depts start running DG events, at least for amateur divisions.

I think this will only happen when the amateur model goes from being payout in merch to trophy only like it is in 99% of sports.

 

[JC17393]

I disagree on this one- the 98% of players who don't want to micromanage the tournament's finances for the TD currently will be fine with the TD making a reasonable profit as long as they feel they are receiving decent value (defined differently by almost every single one of them) for their entry fee. The 2% who want to know what happened to every penny and feel the TD owes it to them to put in hours of work for nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling are going to find something to be dissatisfied with regardless.

Can't say I disagree when you put it that way. Most players probably wouldn't have an issue, or they wouldn't complain if they did because they're not ones to complain. The typical silent majority.

The problem is still with that 2% because way too often they are ****ing loud about whatever it is that they want to complain about. Right or wrong, they still do a lot of damage. The kind of damage that hurts the rep of good TDs and drives them out of the TD business. I see too many tournaments that are the same old run of the mill events because the TD is deathly afraid of pissing off that vocal minority, either for fear that they'll drive away players from their tournaments or just annoy them to the point where the TD doesn't want to do it anymore.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The amateur model wouldn't need to go to Trophy Only for Park Depts to find the current merch model satisfactory for covering labor costs, especially those who already are running a pay-for-play operation with a pro shop.