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Short stride

sidewinder22 said:
Maybe it's because with a tilted axis my rotation is more linear/vertical than horizontal.
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I'd spit ball that it's function of natural hand strength and where you accelerate the disc.

If you have strong hands or hands that fit well into driver rims, you many hold a disc into the latest part of the hit more naturally. If you just get there by luck of good genetics, you may find that hammering forward puts you at the 4:00 spot and the disc is getting the last arc ejecting forward like a rocket.

From my personal experience, hammering forward lead me towards half hitting or slipping. It wasn't until I started playing around with the wide rail, that I could start to feel the major bump you got at 4:00.

Going back to the hammer pound with a traditional back swing, I had to force a delay in the acceleration to get to 4:00 AND get the bump. To do that, I had to start the hammering to the right thing - at which point the thing became much more repeatable.

Because I think there's something that was an issue for me, which was that holding to 4:00 and getting that ARC to happen and hold to 4:00 are two seperate things.

One is holding the disc and the other is "cracking the whip" while holding the disc.

ANYBODY WANT TO TAKE UP CHECKERS?!?
 
For me, it's two distinct things. I hammer toward the box just like in SW's video, which causes the palm ejection and disc pivot, THEN I crack the whip by tugging sideways while the pivot is happening.

I posted this image before in another thread, but I'll repost it here in this context
4OfRu57.png


The IN portion is the hammer pound, the OUT portion is the sideways tug.

PS: I still haven't been able to get to a field with a camera to test the wrist angle, it's on my TODO list :/
 
HyzerUniBomber said:
I'd be hard to argue one way over the other - but for a new player, getting on the feet up approach early will set you on the fast track. Just based on the number of people posting w/ plateau issues that are hamstrung with their feet, hips, bracing - I'd lean that way.
[/IMG]
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I guess I disagree with that. I pared down the form to the stages I did to be able to build the timing from the hit back. Trying to time the feet AND hips AND shoulders AND arm AND the hammer all at the same time seems to be a bit much. That's why my Stage One throw eliminates the feet and hips and leaves just the rest.

Not to say they're completely ignored. I still make certain I get the weight forward on the balls of my feet. It's easy to see where I've been planted when throwing in the field, for even the torque from the torso twist get transmitted to my toes and digs up the grass when the ground is soft.

I'm still trying to get a good feel for that hammer effect. I'm finding it much easier to identify when the arm lags behind the shoulders, so I know the work is paying off. I figure that limiting the timing to the elements I do is making it easier to learn the whole thing because I have less to focus on in practice.

I can see how it could chafe for an impatient novice to do all this work, though. There are times I'd like to be able to X-step and bust one out--and I'm not new to the thrill of flying plastic! ;)
 
I think my arm-shoulder timing is the challenge right now. Getting the arm extended and the hand to the hit at the exact time the shoulders hit 12 and then the shoulders continuing and that contributing the pull to the right on the hammer. Getting that timing sequence is tricky right now and what I suspect the key element to it all. That timing is what I suspect leads to being able to fully feel the weight of the disc shifting around the pivot. Hmmm. I'll keep that in mind for the weekend's practice.
 
Certainly a fair assessment, and I have taught exactly 0 true beginners so I come at this with a bit of a skewed perspective.

Almost all the players I've worked with have figured out ways to throw, but just hadn't been able to minimize and take advantage of the easy distance and accuracy.

Fixing core bracing, hip issues took precedence just to even out getting to an elbow extention.

I still think that the idea of some core building blocks is a fantastic idea and one that could really help fix existing form and develop new form.

If you can do core movement 1, then move onto 1 + 2.

Figuring out a way to share / teach / learn is somewhere I'm sorely lacking. I usually just write or talk about whatever I'm thinking about or if someone asks me specific questions.
 
These threads make me wish so badly that I had some sort of net to throw into indoors or in the yard. Just throw tons of drives for feel to get it right, not caring about flight/distance...until it feels right. Plus not having to walk the (hopefully!) 450'+ to go pick them up. One day.

Some really good discussion. I'm feeling more and more that I need to go into the pocket slower, and really make the effort to do the Beto rail type of move instead of the hammer pound (because the "real" throw is probably some combination of both things). I'm feeling some good things from some practice motions that I've been inspired by from reading this thread, and watching some McBeth footage. Seeing how to keep the hand/arm on the outside of the disc for long enough before pulling it around, really extending outwards from the pocket.

I got a chance to play a round with a guy who has 450'+ on command, and it was interesting getting out drove by 50 to 80' constantly. It made me confirm that my "normal" is half hitting still, and I need to keep trying to get it to that next level. Yeah I know it's not "useful" on lots of holes...but wow is it amazing to see a disc go 475'.
 
TAFL said:
I think my arm-shoulder timing is the challenge right now. Getting the arm extended and the hand to the hit at the exact time the shoulders hit 12 and then the shoulders continuing and that contributing the pull to the right on the hammer. Getting that timing sequence is tricky right now and what I suspect the key element to it all. That timing is what I suspect leads to being able to fully feel the weight of the disc shifting around the pivot. Hmmm. I'll keep that in mind for the weekend's practice.
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In an actual throw, the shoulders will be pointing more towards 1 o'clock when they "catch" and start tugging. The way they are in the diagram is more conceptual (eg: your arm should unwind, removing the slack, before your shoulders can tug). Living room test: Just stand frozen in position with your hand where it should be at the hit, and your shoulders pointing at 12 o'clock. Then begin rotating your torso and you'll see how far you have to go before your shoulder starts pulling your hand.
 
slowplastic said:
These threads make me wish so badly that I had some sort of net to throw into indoors or in the yard. Just throw tons of drives for feel to get it right, not caring about flight/distance...until it feels right. Plus not having to walk the (hopefully!) 450'+ to go pick them up. One day.
Click to expand...

I have one, it IS useful, but it's easy to over do it. EG: you can do 100 drives in less than 10 minutes, normally there would be a lot of walking (read as resting) between throws.

slowplastic said:
Some really good discussion. I'm feeling more and more that I need to go into the pocket slower, and really make the effort to do the Beto rail type of move instead of the hammer pound (because the "real" throw is probably some combination of both things). I'm feeling some good things from some practice motions that I've been inspired by from reading this thread, and watching some McBeth footage. Seeing how to keep the hand/arm on the outside of the disc for long enough before pulling it around, really extending outwards from the pocket.
Click to expand...
Try to slow things down more, if you try something ~10 times and don't see a result, keep making changes. Don't throw 500 times the same way and expect something new to happen.

slowplastic said:
I got a chance to play a round with a guy who has 450'+ on command, and it was interesting getting out drove by 50 to 80' constantly. It made me confirm that my "normal" is half hitting still, and I need to keep trying to get it to that next level. Yeah I know it's not "useful" on lots of holes...but wow is it amazing to see a disc go 475'.
Click to expand...
It IS useful because you can throw a putter or mid and be in significantly more control where other people are throwing drivers as hard as they can.
 
horsethief said:
Try to slow things down more, if you try something ~10 times and don't see a result, keep making changes. Don't throw 500 times the same way and expect something new to happen.
Click to expand...

Very good advice, something I have to remember again. I did this searching for the half hit, and now I have to realize that something has to really change again...

horsethief said:
It IS useful because you can throw a putter or mid and be in significantly more control where other people are throwing drivers as hard as they can.
Click to expand...

Yep, on an ~380' hole he reached for a Leopard and I reached for my beat Destroyer.

....

There's been a lot of talk of shoulders in this thread...what about hips? What is felt with the hips at this shoulder tugging stage? Should they feel like they are still leading the shoulders and giving it the power, or have they already done their thing? I fear that I may not be using my hips to the fullest, especially from watching Paige Pierce drive:



I won't be able to hit the field for a week or two...which is hard now that I have all of these things to try.
 
About the hammering toward the target vs. to the right-

in the Elbow Extension blog post( http://www.heavydisc.com/2014/09/elbow-extension.html )

You said that we dont ever really reach the 12:00 release point- it rips from the hand before that, as is demonstrated in all three of the professionals' videos included in that post.

So if they are indeed "pounding the hammer," wouldnt that motion then really be toward the target if it is coming out of the hand before the 12:00 position? if they were pounding to the right of the 12:00 position, then the videos show that they would be releasing before they get the hammer pound motion.

If that is the case, would the more accurate diagram posted earlier to shave off a few degrees of each arc?
 
I think so- so the entire arm hasnt reached the 12:00 position, but it is still fully extended and the wrist has opened?
 
TAFL said:
I think my arm-shoulder timing is the challenge right now. Getting the arm extended and the hand to the hit at the exact time the shoulders hit 12 and then the shoulders continuing and that contributing the pull to the right on the hammer. Getting that timing sequence is tricky right now and what I suspect the key element to it all. That timing is what I suspect leads to being able to fully feel the weight of the disc shifting around the pivot. Hmmm. I'll keep that in mind for the weekend's practice.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you've done it but Bradley Walkers closed shoulder snap drill really helps isolate this motion. do it right and you can't help but feel the pivot and then get to add juice to the pivot and pull through it or in other words hammer it.

On another note I think SW and Hubs difference is a posture swing/thing. SW is always right over his toes and explodes up through the hit with a very closed shoulder. HUB still looks like he is behind his toes slightly (throwing the wide rail seems to pull him forward and over slightly and looks better balanced as a result) and opens up shoulders more to the target through the hit, this is going to make the final motion more right than SW's up and towards. Same conclusion different ways of getting there. Look at Rowvid of EO 2013 lead card - http://rowvid.com/?v=GfjiaZ9DvXQ Feldberg is hammering up towards the target, Paul is hammering away from the target. Still all are dong the final hammer motion.

SW on Rowvid - hammering forwards(ish) http://rowvid.com/?v=ok26o-xSVRA

This is a great thread by the way.
 
Dam the rowvids haven't started where I paused them playing from the start instead, anyone know how to do this?
 
Gotcha, thanks CLard simple as that!

Thinking about it it's not much use anyway as I really need stills :(

SW at 13 seconds shows him hammering towards target, lead card you can all find the still for yourselves!
 
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