The Perfect Anhyzer/Hyzer

[tbird888]

Is this Sidewinder he caught or Grip?

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

^For arguments sake, what would happen on that exact throw you just described without changing your grip? Would it not turn right enough?

EDIT: What would you be changing your grip from anyway? It sounds like you don't have a go-to.

Assuming I didn't screw it up and I got good snap? It would fly straight and flat at most 5' above the ground for a maximum distance of around 300'. But, on the holes I'm describing, it would either hit trees or end up far left of the basket. Angling the disc reduces the maximum distance some because a turning angled disc catches some air, essentially air braking as it turns.

 

[ru4por]

Lol, the natural progression of our game, is individual and should be an ongoing process. As I started the game, many moons ago, there was no interwebz, videos, forums and few players to even compare form with. As I taught myself the game and driving, it evolved nearly each season. I move through many "false prophets" as I liked to call them. New revelations that I thought were the very key to taking my game to the next level. Some were, most were not....they ended up having limitations.
Hang in there OP and stay open minded. While your strategy may work now, adding and changing will continue to improve you entire game. I think your moving against common convention with this idea, but work with it. Add modification and continue to do some field work trying to incorporate some of the other ideas presented here. The worst that happens is you develop new shots and shaping to your game.

 

[m_Krakov]

Assuming I didn't screw it up and I got good snap? It would fly straight and flat at most 5' above the ground for a maximum distance of around 300'. But, on the holes I'm describing, it would either hit trees or end up far left of the basket. Angling the disc reduces the maximum distance some because a turning angled disc catches some air, essentially air braking as it turns.

Are you implying that a flex shot would be ideal in this situation? Because if you were to utilize the tips some of the folks in this thread are trying to give you (i.e. swing plane/release angle consistency), you'd see that the disc will hold its turn longer and avoid the "air brake" as you say.

 

[Atvizory2000]

I need to go to disc golf school. This is getting confusing now.

Oh..and i like to dip my discs in water before i throw an anhyzer. It gives it more glide because the wind is drying off the disc instead of slowing it down.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

If you are actually throwing flat/swinging your arm flat and extended with the disc tilted and the disc swings around in the same tilt, it can't be hyzer or anhyzer because it swings around and becomes the nose in a flat trajectory so it's rotation is a wobble instead of on the plane of the disc and it's trajectory and eventually stabilizes or crashes and burns.

It doesn't wobble, not even a little. The spin imparted to a disc comes primarily from snap, the 'hammer' weight shift as the bulk of the disc is whipped around the index finger. (Force from wrist rotation and elbow opening up also impart some spin, but mostly they're accelerating the disc, the final snap out of the grip gives the bulk of rotation.) If the disc is angled, you would get OAT if the plane of rotation didn't match the plane of the disc angle. With this technique, the disc rotates on a plane separate than the plane of the throwing arm. If there were OAT, the raised left edge of the disc would rotate around to become the nose of the disc, but this doesn't happen. Instead, the disc leaves the hand rotating flat to it's own angle. The disc's linear acceleration isn't hampered by the disc being angled - it still transfers to forward momentum the same, but the snap-imparted rotation is probably not optimal, but it DOES spin the disc on its angled plane.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57090&stc=1&d=1454514129

 

[mark996]

So can we close the gate that lets all the self appointed, social justice warrior, know it all wizardly gods of disc golf in again please?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

?
So your primary acceleration is on a horizontal plane.
You are not changing wrist angle,
BUT
You are able to snap and impart spin to the disc on a different plane... With no OAT, which would be force on a horizontal plane?

 

[blackcatsmith]

Lol, the natural progression of our game, is individual and should be an ongoing process. As I started the game, many moons ago, there was no interwebz, videos, forums and few players to even compare form with. As I taught myself the game and driving, it evolved nearly each season. I move through many "false prophets" as I liked to call them. New revelations that I thought were the very key to taking my game to the next level. Some were, most were not....they ended up having limitations.
Hang in there OP and stay open minded. While your strategy may work now, adding and changing will continue to improve you entire game. I think your moving against common convention with this idea, but work with it. Add modification and continue to do some field work trying to incorporate some of the other ideas presented here. The worst that happens is you develop new shots and shaping to your game.

Well said. "The obsession is in the chasing, not the apprehending"- Tom Waits, or as the local college's bumper sticker states: Education is a journey, not a destination. Learn it all, I say, and disregard what doesn't work. Also, to believe there is nothing left to learn is to have learned nothing.

 

[rhatton1]

Seeing as Mike has chimed in here - Hi Mike! - This seems quite apt - http://imgur.com/tU7anYa it's something we were playing around with a couple of years ago, the diagram on the right was drawn before HUB linked it up to Mikes top down video and it synced in amazingly well, the original diagram was from Blake T.

The reason I'm posting it is, well I don't know anymore, I've written about 10 different posts and given up on all of them as I don't think you will believe me, you don;t seem to believe a lot of others who have said it better than I can.

Hell I'm posting it cause I like it, hopefully it helps you on your journey. It shows a lot of how the disc pivots, how much it pivots,how quick that motion is and how it separates from the hand just at the end and which edge will be the leading edge at release. It doesn't sound like that matches up with what you're talking about at all. It also shows Mike in a lovely small hyzer angle the whole way through, totally on plane and the disc going through the Hit totally on plane with his arm as a result. To get an anhyzer he could just lean back rather than forward and have an incredibly simple way of throwing the shot.

I understand your dislike of hearing things like "generate power from the ground up" Yes if not explained well this just means nothing, the problem is you've thrown it into attacks on Sidewinder who has given us the most comprehensive set of drills in the sport for developing and showing how to develop power from the ground up, these work, they can be shown working in the form of the top players and the drills can help people who haven't been able to do these things to do them. It's pretty solid evidence he knows what he's talking about. There's only been one thing on these forums I would ever disagree with him on and we can probably all work out what that one was, however good his sidearm might be

It's great that you are getting involved in these things with your own findings, it's great but some of the things you are saying are not good things to try to teach people. We've all made this mistake in the enthusiasm of finding new things, I know I have.

 

[clard]

Very well said, rhatton.

Sidewinder helped me so much and has helped lots of other people. Dude knows what is up. How do I know? Because I can throw much farther than I used to be able to, and that is due to a mix of hard work and help from people on these forums.

 

[sidewinder22]

It doesn't wobble, not even a little. The spin imparted to a disc comes primarily from snap, the 'hammer' weight shift as the bulk of the disc is whipped around the index finger. (Force from wrist rotation and elbow opening up also impart some spin, but mostly they're accelerating the disc, the final snap out of the grip gives the bulk of rotation.) If the disc is angled, you would get OAT if the plane of rotation didn't match the plane of the disc angle. With this technique, the disc rotates on a plane separate than the plane of the throwing arm. If there were OAT, the raised left edge of the disc would rotate around to become the nose of the disc, but this doesn't happen. Instead, the disc leaves the hand rotating flat to it's own angle. The disc's linear acceleration isn't hampered by the disc being angled - it still transfers to forward momentum the same, but the snap-imparted rotation is probably not optimal, but it DOES spin the disc on its angled plane.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57090&stc=1&d=1454514129

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Lol, the natural progression of our game, is individual and should be an ongoing process. As I started the game, many moons ago, there was no interwebz, videos, forums and few players to even compare form with. As I taught myself the game and driving, it evolved nearly each season. I move through many "false prophets" as I liked to call them. New revelations that I thought were the very key to taking my game to the next level. Some were, most were not....they ended up having limitations.
Hang in there OP and stay open minded. While your strategy may work now, adding and changing will continue to improve you entire game. I think your moving against common convention with this idea, but work with it. Add modification and continue to do some field work trying to incorporate some of the other ideas presented here. The worst that happens is you develop new shots and shaping to your game.

Thanks ru4por.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Very well said, rhatton.

Sidewinder helped me so much and has helped lots of other people. Dude knows what is up. How do I know? Because I can throw much farther than I used to be able to, and that is due to a mix of hard work and help from people on these forums.

I'm sure he does, but my experience (and not just with regards to my own posts) is that he and others delight in trolling around looking for things to disagree with. I'm not a big fan of that kind of 'help' and I have a hard time being around people who never admit they might, just might, be wrong. He's made several blanket statements about this post alone, such as whether or not I'm throwing nose up, about which he is wrong. Even when I can demonstrate why he's wrong, I know he will never acknowledge that he was wrong or that he was a jerk about how he delivered his opinion. I know the type all too well. People should be able to disagree without resorting to personal insults. I'm disappointed in myself when I sink to that level, which I have on occasion.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Are you implying that a flex shot would be ideal in this situation? Because if you were to utilize the tips some of the folks in this thread are trying to give you (i.e. swing plane/release angle consistency), you'd see that the disc will hold its turn longer and avoid the "air brake" as you say.

I do use a flex shot quite regularly, but not if I'm trying to get distance. I could maybe get a flex shot out 200' on a good day, so I usually only use it as an approach shot or to get through gaps. I lose power when I raise my arm to shoulder height for a flex shot. The amount of air braking that happens varies, even on my flex shot. Some shots, like a flex around a near obstacle to a basket just on the other side, I intentionally let it catch some air because the things I normally count on to move the disc in the direction it's tilted (lift and gyroscopic precession) aren't really there for such a low-powered, short throw. If I throw it with the bottom of the disc exposed more, it catches air and that helps it corner sharper at low speed.

 

[TYVEK]

I would disagree with manipulating your wrist angle to try and achieve a certain flight path. im only going off of the first comment, I was too lazy to read all 8 pages. the only tweaks of "wrist angle" should be in keeping the nose down. the very simplest way of explaining an anhyzer throw in my opinion is to just slightly drop the right shoulder back as you are coming from the reach back to the point where you release the disc. right hand backhand of course and yes I know that the disc isn't really "released" from the hand. by just slightly dropping that lead shoulder back it will naturaly give an anhyzer release. ok now im ready for people to tell me how wrong I am..............GO!

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm sure he does, but my experience (and not just with regards to my own posts) is that he and others delight in trolling around looking for things to disagree with. I'm not a big fan of that kind of 'help' and I have a hard time being around people who never admit they might, just might, be wrong. He's made several blanket statements about this post alone, such as whether or not I'm throwing nose up, about which he is wrong. Even when I can demonstrate why he's wrong, I know he will never acknowledge that he was wrong or that he was a jerk about how he delivered his opinion. I know the type all too well. People should be able to disagree without resorting to personal insults. I'm disappointed in myself when I sink to that level, which I have on occasion.

I only disagree with what I believe is incorrect, unless proven well enough otherwise. So far you have not provided any proof of anything other than using Pee Wee arguments and just saying everyone else is wrong and you are right. I've left some of your other "new discovery" threads alone, although some of the stuff I didn't agree with, I wouldn't say they were totally wrong and I can appreciate the enthusiasm.

The way you have depicted your "perfect anhyzer" technique is not correct and your original diagram is nigh impossible to figure out what is going on there. I'm not saying that shot is not possible(it definitely is), just the way you are describing the mechanics of it. I'm venturing you have a case of feel ain't real and not actually swinging level and/or rolling the arm, and misinterpreting some stuff along the way. It's also very easy for drivers to mask wobble to the naked eye. This is why some want to see a video of you throwing this shot. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, like the hammer throw video I made for you.

Also you are the one that started spewing insults to nearly anyone who has ever tried to help others...

Most of what is stated about disc golf is just repeating what others have said before. Instead all we get is recitation and quotes, and some of that proves to be wrong, too... As for giving new players bad advice, MOST advice out there is bad. That's partly because people can't always explain a concept so they repeat what they were told. Can't tell you how bad the advice on proper use of the hips is. Most who try end up repeating neo-mysticism about power coming from the ground up with no practical advice on how to actually use that. I say listen to what is said, think about it, and try it yourself. Dont be afraid to try something new or that is counter to common knowledge. Or put Beto or Climo on an endless loop and shut your brain down and miss out on possibly learning something new.

By 'neo-mysticism' I meant it has become something of a sacred mantra. While there's definite truth to it. Nearly everyone trying to teach it falls short because practical application is missing. I've seen some who give practical advice on when to move hips and the like, but they're few and far between. Others just gesture at their feet and mumble something about 'the ground up'.

Precisely why I wince every time someone gives newbies the advice of...

This answer fits, so stop looking lest we discover something new that challenges our safe cozy oh-so-satisfied sense of complete knowing?

It did away with that misleading crap about keeping the disc on a straight line... There's also misleading 'hit' point...

One thing many people have tried to explain, but not well, is the incorporation of the lower body, especially the hips. If anyone has a line on a good 'practical' explanation of when and how the hips become involved, I'd be indebted.

I just discovered today that I get better snap and distance if I pinch the disc between my thumb and forefinger. I'm amazed very few of the instructional videos discuss this aspect of the drive.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I've always been aggravated by all the 'whip' verbiage

I'm starting to realize that a lot of the often-repeated advice isn't as useful as it could be.

most people giving advice talk about how critical it is to reach as far back as possible (except for those who say it isn't important at all), but what they don't tell you (I won't go into why since that's not the point here.) It's a critical little detail that usually gets overlooked in the masses of people saying how important reaching fully back is without giving important bits like the off-shoulder positioning.

Accelerating the disc in a straight line across the body is another tip that gets repeated like a mantra, and that's probably enough for most people, but, again, some important details don't usually get mentioned.

For me, anyway, the breakthrough on this came from watching slow-motion drives of the pros. I realized they were leading with the elbow even though this caused that 'bunching up' I mentioned where the elbow reaches the end of the forward motion it's capable of. But, if you watch what happens next - the forearm keeps moving, whipping around the elbow pivot point at high velocity. THAT's what's supposed to happen. It's what allows the transfer of power from everything above the elbow into the forearm and, ultimately, into the disc. It's like your forearm is a pole vaulter running at full speed, and the point where it rams the pole into the ground is when it hits the maximum extension point of the elbow. What happens next is just like the pole vaulter catapulting into the air, but turned on its side. With forward motion denied, the elbow becomes a pivot point and the forearm is levered around it. Once I realized this, I abandoned all thoughts of moving the disc in a straight line... It also emphasizes that 'stick' where the elbow can't go any further and the energy whips the forearm around at high velocity.

Grip is another area that could benefit from taking a closer look than most advice gives... That rotation on the index finger is a major source of power because it whips the disc around

 

[Mike C]

beardedfatguy,

If you want an example of a dead simple drill to teach hip incorporation, try the following:

Do an x-step at full speed with your arms 100% limp. Watch how fast your arm whips around your body without using your arm muscles at all.

5 seconds it all it takes to show anyone how you can get power from the ground up. No mysticism about it. It's something you can go do right now and feel the results for yourself. Try it and it will teach you how much power can come from parts of your body besides your arms.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

I only disagree with what I believe is incorrect, unless proven well enough otherwise. So far you have not provided any proof of anything other than using Pee Wee arguments and just saying everyone else is wrong and you are right. I've left some of your other "new discovery" threads alone, although some of the stuff I didn't agree with, I wouldn't say they were totally wrong and I can appreciate the enthusiasm.

Very little of what you hunted down from my posts to repeat (I'm honored by the way - you do know you'll never get those minutes of your life back, right?) are anything I feel ashamed of. I stand by these statements, though I certainly could have kept a bit of snark and ire out of them. But you throwing that in my face is really the pot calling the kettle a cooking utensil. You wield your opinion like a, well, a hammer.

If I can take a few of them. I DO believe that 80%+ of what is presented as instruction is just recitation. If it's true, pointing it out isn't, I think, wrong.

I also have seen time and time again someone struggle to impart what happens from the ground up, and they do often resort to reciting the mantras without explaining anything deeper about them. Truth.

And I do believe the instruction, often with slow demonstration of moving the disc on a straight line across the chest or solar plexus, is misleading to new players because it directs them to focus on the desired end result instead of the motions that will create it. I found myself focusing on the disc instead of the major muscle groups and throwing for crap because of this advice.

These are just my opinions and I've expressed them in no more offensive a manner than you have done repeatedly.

In retrospect, the illustration I drew could certainly be difficult to comprehend, but it was a first attempt at visual explanation. If nothing else, I should have convinced you by now that I damn well know the difference between a raised edge and nose up, and I f-ing know OAT from non-OAT - two of the first untrue sins you accused me of then dropped without rescinding.

I wish I could easily video what I'm doing on the course, but I don't have a camera tripod and don't trust the stability of hand held cameras or cell phones, so it probably won't happen, at least not any time soon. And, let's be honest, even if I made a perfect video demonstration that proved your accusations about the technique wrong, you'd never admit it. At most you'd be silent on the matter. Either way, not worth it.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

beardedfatguy,

If you want an example of a dead simple drill to teach hip incorporation, try the following:

Do an x-step at full speed with your arms 100% limp. Watch how fast your arm whips around your body without using your arm muscles at all.

5 seconds it all it takes to show anyone how you can get power from the ground up. No mysticism about it. It's something you can go do right now and feel the results for yourself. Try it and it will teach you how much power can come from parts of your body besides your arms.

Thanks, Mike. I know this drill - I've done the same with shoulder rotation and limp arms. I'm not saying power doesn't come up from the largest muscle groups through the hips, torso and shoulders. What I'm saying is many who attempt to explain it founder and resort to ineffectual recitation that really explains nothing.