Categorizing release angle ranges

[disc-golf-neil]

The advice I would give, is to go force yourself to not do it at all, and see how it changes your swing. Exaggerate it and never let your upper arm collapse. Start slow with something like the one-leg drill and just concentrate on the reciprocating dingle arm concept with a wide upper arm angle. Actually coil, don't fake it by reaching your arm around your body.

There is a lot to be gained from making sure this part of your swing is sound.

Yeah, I definitely don't want any of it, that's not at all in question. But I still think we should be clear about how much there is when it's present and you didn't challenge my 'proof' that it's not severe so I don't know if you still stand by that. I was already trying to exaggerate it yesterday and it felt like it helped but I need to get some more footage to verify.

 

[RowingBoats]

What I meant is that in pretty much any form in sports, trying with close to 100% effort results in parts of the form worsening, usually quite a bit. I don't think disc golf is some nebulous exception to this. I think it's generally best to cap your effort around 85% at the most to maintain the desired form whether it's a DG throw or a tennis serve. However, I do think occasionally during practice sessions, if you have pretty good form, cranking it up to 95% effort and seeing where you have form breakdowns and then trying to reduce them at that effort can, over time, result in your 85% effort being stronger and more effortless.

Can you show me a pro throwing far af and collapsing their upper arm angle?

 

[RowingBoats]

Yeah, I definitely don't want any of it, that's not at all in question. But I still think we should be clear about how much there is when it's present and you didn't challenge my 'proof' that it's not severe so I don't know if you still stand by that. I was already trying to exaggerate it yesterday and it felt like it helped but I need to get some more footage to verify.

You are massively collapsed in your 'proof' I genuinely do not understand what you are saying.

The entire swing has to have integrity. You seem to be saying that its not that bad if you collapsed if you can find another frame after that mimics proper form. That is exactly what people are saying is an easy pitfall

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Can you show me a pro throwing far af and collapsing their upper arm angle?

Again, you are misunderstanding, I already clarified that I did not say that rounding is the inherent manifestation of a breakdown that will occur. My claim is that some part of the form will breakdown at max effort. For ME, at this stage in my form, rounding is one of those things that happens, it is not inherent though, and in the future probably will not happen. The part of the form that breaks down at max effort is different from person to person based on their form, strengths, and weaknesses.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

You are massively collapsed in your 'proof' I genuinely do not understand what you are saying.

The entire swing has to have integrity. You seem to be saying that its not that bad if you collapsed if you can find another frame after that mimics proper form. That is exactly what people are saying is an easy pitfall

What is massively collapsed? the upper arm is not touching the chest at all in the frame I referenced, it is in earlier frames.

 

[RowingBoats]

What is massively collapsed? the upper arm is not touching the chest at all in the frame I referenced, it is in earlier frames.

This thread is just silly now, but, it seriously seems like you don't understand what rounding is and why you want to maintain a wide upper arm angle THROUGHOUT the swing, not just at some point in it.

Perhaps another thread would be better for that discussion if you are interested in it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The entire swing has to have integrity. You seem to be saying that its not that bad if you collapsed if you can find another frame after that mimics proper form. That is exactly what people are saying is an easy pitfall

I agree that the entire swing has to have integrity, you keep going full black and white it seems while I'm more thinking about a spectrum.

I'm not saying it's NOT BAD black and white. Let me be clear, any rounding at any stage is bad. But you can have more or less rounding overall, and the less you have, the better, even though you should have none in order for the swing to have full integrity.

 

[RowingBoats]

I agree that the entire swing has to have integrity, you keep going full black and white it seems while I'm more thinking about a spectrum.

I'm not saying it's NOT BAD black and white. Let me be clear, any rounding at any stage is bad. But you can have more or less rounding overall, and the less you have, the better, even though you should have none in order for the swing to have full integrity.

It is far more black and white than you seem to be believing though. At least for me. It is an extreme deviation from correct, powerful form when I play around with trying to deliberately round and still maintain any power or even the general feel of a good swing.

I don't understand why you even want to be pedantic about it. If you admit that you shouldn't do it, then, fix it and dont do it

 

[Sheep]

"Max power" is a nebulous thing when you apply it to the disc golf swing. I believe what you mean is that when you perform excessive bodily exertion, it messes things up. From my perspective, one of the core fundamental rules that you need to adhere to is banishing this entire mentality completely.

There is absolutely no benefit to just 'trying harder', at least for a long, long while. I throw exclusively standstill shots, and it has been very interesting to progress that swing. I went from noob hyzers to 400' fairly rapidly, and from 400' - 450' much, much slower. It has not required more exertion, it has required less, over time. I don't think I have perfect form, but I also don't know how much more I can eke out of a standstill. I'm 5'7, 135lbs, with tiny hands. Pretty much the worst body type for distance lol. I feel like I am at something of a speed limit, but my body is capable of pretending to throw harder, it just requires that I ruin what actually gives the swing power to feel like Im doing that.

I'm sure you already know this concept, but I do recommend that you fully embrace it. For a good long while, you will just have to understand that throwing fairly far is shockingly easy if you maintain the integrity of your swing. All of these things that seem 'little' or like you are 'close' to looking the same as a pro, matter a lot. People in this thread won't budge on this for a reason

Now, there are levels that I have not reached that do seem to require some rather high levels of exertion. People literally throw 200' farther than I can, but they definitely didn't get there by skipping the clean easy power step of the process. Eventually, I think you can go down that road if you want to find out your true maximum potential, but right now, I'd just think differently about what 'max power' actually means.

Exactly.
Max power isn't how hard you can yeet the disc.
Max power is peak controlled performance.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't understand why you even want to be pedantic about it. If you admit that you shouldn't do it, then, fix it and dont do it

Pedantic? How can you tell how close someone is to a particular goal if the granularity you are working with is 'perfect' or 'severely wrong'.

I definitely could be missing something on all the nuance that goes into the term rounding. From my understanding when the shoulder angle collapses it brings the upper bicep into the chest which often results in the disc being stuck around the body.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Exactly.
Max power isn't how hard you can yeet the disc.
Max power is peak controlled performance.

I can agree with this but people have to know this nuance definition it's not automatically known. That's why in my later explanation I used 100% effort to clarify what I meant.

 

[RowingBoats]

Pedantic? How can you tell how close someone is to a particular goal if the granularity you are working with is 'perfect' or 'severely wrong'.

I definitely could be missing something on all the nuance that goes into the term rounding. From my understanding when the shoulder angle collapses it brings the upper bicep into the chest which often results in the disc being stuck around the body.

This is a position that is far weaker than figuring out how to never be in this position. One of the simpler ways imo to feel this is to go force a very, very wide upper arm angle and actually coil your upper body, and never let that angle collapse. Figure out how to generate the whip feeling with this emphasized and you will feel how much stronger it is.

There is nothing you can do from the position you are in here other than a rather weak flap. Make that arm heavy af.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for the thorough post.

I think it's really hard to bridge the gap between differences in mentality and disposition and to guess how certain approaches or thought processes will affect someone primarily through text.

People who have seen someone suffer from analysis paralysis will understandably be quick to warn that as a pitfall when seeing someone writing with lots of analysis and attention to details, and similarly, if you've seen someone overly focused on tech disc data you'll be quick to warn about that.

I love having the data, and analyzing deeply, but when I go play, I choose my shot and my disc and I throw without hesitation or a lengthy set-up process and I make corrections based on the actual results. I think it's easy for people to imagine someone highly analytical instead being bogged down by the choices and having a lengthy mechanical set-up process to their throw.

I agree about small physical changes in form being able to have drastic effects on how it feels and can have drastic results, but initially that wasn't clearly stated so it seemed like what was being suggested was a visually obvious huge transformation in form.

Also, back on the topic of what constitutes "severe" rounding as opposed to mild or medium, it's still unclear to me where these lines are based on what some have said is "severe". I find it interesting to try to pin things like this down to work towards a more precise understanding. More confusing is that late releases and rotating too early and over rotation can happen without rounding but are also more likely to happen as a result of rounding.

In image one frame 2 and 3 below, it's clear there is some shoulder angle collapse rounding, but the 4th frame to me is proof that there isn't severe rounding in this throw because that position with a non-collapsed power pocket (correct me if I'm wrong) is incredibly difficult and unlikely to be reached if there was severe rounding--the arm could never catch up and become non-collapsed.

View attachment 331322

I do understand where you are coming from (I think).

Rounding: I would encourage that this is one area where looking at the video is actually sometimes missing the point, and is related to the "feel vs real" problem.

If you pass through a stillframe where you appear to round, it is evidence that you have not maintained and committed leverage through the action.

If you tried to throw a ball or leverage a hammer (or sword or club or hit a bag or whatever), and the move passed through a range of motion equal to "rounding" (shoulder collapse), you would have spoiled most of the power. It doesn't "come back" when the shoulder looks less collapsed because you already broke the force chain between the ground and the disc. If I hit my heavy bag with the analogous collapse or rounding in the middle of the move, I move the bag less and less abruptly, and hurt more. People just don't notice it as quickly with a disc because it's so light (until it catches up with them). Or they aren't getting the full momentum into the swing and then when they do they get an acute injury. Players also notice this break in leverage faster once they fix it the first time because the disc usually goes significantly farther more easily.

This next part should kind of be ignored until you really know what I mean there because I just told you video doesn't say it all, but in case it helps: your fourth stillframe still shows evidence of rounding. (1) Your disc being higher than your elbow (2) axis of the lower arm out of alignment with your shoulders and (3) narrow shoulder angle is evidence of spoiled leverage (rounding). Sidewinder's Riding the Bull move from Turbo Encabulator is an outstanding fix for some of this because the way your arm works needs to be attached to your whole posture. Most people do that wrong at first, too. Also helps with that rear elbow dragging behind you.



I do agree that those mistakes are more likely near the upper end of effort/momentum in the move (for anyone). I still spend a lot of time right now with moves that help me shift and carry full momentum through the move like a lever.

*BTW- there is a tendency on this forum to be more critical than supportive at times. I think you're building on a good foundation and I love the enthusiasm. I would encourage you to spend some time on some of the issues pointed out here.

 

[Brychanus]

Yep, this There is a lot of room for pushing the envelope at the top end, but it seems like a recipe for disaster to go that route too early.

Good to see you again haha seems like you've been away a bit!

You too man. 2nd kid was a big change & I took a hiatus to focus on other things. But apparently I can't stay away!

 

[RowingBoats]

Play around with the concept in the first vid of this thread, and play with whether you can generate that massive power with a collapsed upper arm angle. Just play with your body and see if anything feels helpful

This isn't completely isolated to helping with rounding, but its a good feeling to cement and understand. And playing with that concept AND rounding does actually demonstrate some interesting things that I think apply very much to your form video.

Can you generate some power after collapsing? Yes, but then you have to rotate a whole lot more and correct for it. There is a much better way.

Latissimus dorsi the king of mass, brace and dingle arms.

Grammar and facts may vary. I am hoping this will fix many of the issues people are having with their form. I am going to go as far as to claim that many of the drills here do not work unless you get some mass in to your swing. HUB and SW22 have demonstrated many times how easy it is to feel...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for the thorough post.

I think it's really hard to bridge the gap between differences in mentality and disposition and to guess how certain approaches or thought processes will affect someone primarily through text.

People who have seen someone suffer from analysis paralysis will understandably be quick to warn that as a pitfall when seeing someone writing with lots of analysis and attention to details, and similarly, if you've seen someone overly focused on tech disc data you'll be quick to warn about that.

I love having the data, and analyzing deeply, but when I go play, I choose my shot and my disc and I throw without hesitation or a lengthy set-up process and I make corrections based on the actual results. I think it's easy for people to imagine someone highly analytical instead being bogged down by the choices and having a lengthy mechanical set-up process to their throw.

I agree about small physical changes in form being able to have drastic effects on how it feels and can have drastic results, but initially that wasn't clearly stated so it seemed like what was being suggested was a visually obvious huge transformation in form.

Also, back on the topic of what constitutes "severe" rounding as opposed to mild or medium, it's still unclear to me where these lines are based on what some have said is "severe". I find it interesting to try to pin things like this down to work towards a more precise understanding. More confusing is that late releases and rotating too early and over rotation can happen without rounding but are also more likely to happen as a result of rounding.

In image one frame 2 and 3 below, it's clear there is some shoulder angle collapse rounding, but the 4th frame to me is proof that there isn't severe rounding in this throw because that position with a non-collapsed power pocket (correct me if I'm wrong) is incredibly difficult and unlikely to be reached if there was severe rounding--the arm could never catch up and become non-collapsed.

View attachment 331322

You are already over rotated to the target in the first photo there.



I go over part of that in this video.

 

[Sheep]

To clarify rounding.

There are 2 types of rounding in my mind.

One is where you get the disc to far behind you and have to throw around yourself.

The second is where you over rotate rounding the disc around yourself late.

You can do one or the other or both at the same time.

The disc path isn't linear, but if you're coming out late on the target line, its over rotation due to either improperly setting your body up to the throw, as demonstrated in the video. This is something a lot of newer players do, They dont set their body up to throw on target and basically "pull through" because their shoulder turn is already way ahead of the swing, especially when they dont know they need to get the disc "out" from the pocket. This is generally an issue of the old ideology of the "pull" method of disc golf. If you dont fully turn to set up the shot, when you pull, you will pull through and round and throw late.
Most people call this grip lock, its not grip lock.

The Other way people tend to do it is by throwing their weight and not getting the disc out trying to encourage the kinetic chain vs driving the kinetic chain. So when your hips and shoulders rotate early, the disc is always going to come out late, because you can never catch up, causing you to round and throw late.

Based on your video, because you are using the squish the bug method throwing your hips, you're over rotating your body way to early vs building a solid kinetic chain, thus when you put in 100% effort, you're rounding because you're trying to throw yourself into the shot and over drive it with rotation.

Kind of a crude explanation but.. thats as much effort as I'm willing to put into it.

 

[Sheep]

The idea of out in out is very important in the swing.

When you start trying to pull and over rotate, it's never going to go well.
It's important when we get the disc into the pocket our body is setup to drive everything out into the disc.

If your body is already passed that point, there is no catching up, you will round, you will throw the disc late.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I do understand where you are coming from (I think).

Rounding: I would encourage that this is one area where looking at the video is actually sometimes missing the point, and is related to the "feel vs real" problem.

If you pass through a stillframe where you appear to round, it is evidence that you have not maintained and committed leverage through the action.

If you tried to throw a ball or leverage a hammer (or sword or club or hit a bag or whatever), and the move passed through a range of motion equal to "rounding" (shoulder collapse), you would have spoiled most of the power. It doesn't "come back" when the shoulder looks less collapsed because you already broke the force chain between the ground and the disc. If I hit my heavy bag with the analogous collapse or rounding in the middle of the move, I move the bag less and less abruptly, and hurt more. People just don't notice it as quickly with a disc because it's so light (until it catches up with them). Or they aren't getting the full momentum into the swing and then when they do they get an acute injury. Players also notice this break in leverage faster once they fix it the first time because the disc usually goes significantly farther more easily.

This next part should kind of be ignored until you really know what I mean there because I just told you video doesn't say it all, but in case it helps: your fourth stillframe still shows evidence of rounding. (1) Your disc being higher than your elbow (2) axis of the lower arm out of alignment with your shoulders and (3) narrow shoulder angle is evidence of spoiled leverage (rounding). Sidewinder's Riding the Bull move from Turbo Encabulator is an outstanding fix for some of this because the way your arm works needs to be attached to your whole posture. Most people do that wrong at first, too. Also helps with that rear elbow dragging behind you.

View attachment 331325

I do agree that those mistakes are more likely near the upper end of effort/momentum in the move (for anyone). I still spend a lot of time right now with moves that help me shift and carry full momentum through the move like a lever.

*BTW- there is a tendency on this forum to be more critical than supportive at times. I think you're building on a good foundation and I love the enthusiasm. I would encourage you to spend some time on some of the issues pointed out here.

I'll watch the linked vids. Is bending the elbow less during the power pocket a good cue? Some of what you said seems like that could help with. I've thought before about bending the elbow to come in tight (staying tight for the rotation) to the chest but I might be over doing that.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The idea of out in out is very important in the swing.

When you start trying to pull and over rotate, it's never going to go well.
It's important when we get the disc into the pocket our body is setup to drive everything out into the disc.

If your body is already passed that point, there is no catching up, you will round, you will throw the disc late.

Yeah I've seen that SW video top down showing the wide rail disc path. Wish it was easier to film with multiple views, hah.